"I don’t think the government has the authority to close a church."
April 8, 2020 12:12 PM   Subscribe

Florida this week joined the states directing residents to stay home to help reduce spread of the coronavirus but carving out exemptions for religious services

  • Florida - Ron DeSantis - DeSantis’ updated order removes language that provided an exception for local ordinances that went beyond the state order. ... That specifically pertains to a religious exemption that allows churches to continue holding services.
  • Michigan - Whitmer - "Consistent with prior guidance, a place of religious worship, when used for religious worship, is not subject to penalty under section 14," reads the new order.
  • New Mexico - Lujan Grisham - “Mass gathering” does not include “individuals” congregated in a church, synagogue, mosque, or other place of worship.
  • Delaware - Carney - "We're taking reasonable precautions, but we can't take every precaution," explained Father Lentini. "We're not going to celebrate mass in a hazmat suit.
  • Texas - Abbott - Texas Gov. Greg Abbott issued a statewide stay-at-home order, though he declined to refer to it as such, that also designated religious services as essential. Some religious groups in Texas — it’s unclear just how many — are still welcoming parishioners.
... You get the idea.

Other [than Florida] particularly vulnerable states with special exemptions for religious activities include Louisiana, Tennessee, West Virginia, New Hampshire, Delaware, Michigan and Mississippi. In Oklahoma, Missouri and Arkansas, there are no statewide orders closing nonessential businesses.

"In almost all of the states that lead the nation in numbers of cases, and which have issued blanket stay-at-home orders, there are specific exemptions for religious gatherings or acts of worship."
posted by ErisLordFreedom (131 comments total) 17 users marked this as a favorite
 
OK, so stay safe unless it's in this one kind of building, because reasons.

This is ludicrous. The virus doesn't know what building it's in.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 12:15 PM on April 8, 2020 [53 favorites]


Hard not to call this premeditated murder.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:18 PM on April 8, 2020 [13 favorites]


I always thought my fellow atheists were being hyperbolic when they said religion would kill us all....

At one point in Korea over 55% of all COVID victims could be traced to a single super spreader at a church insisting on non-hygienic communion. But apparently that means nothing to the Republicans.

Once, long in the distant past, Republican Supreme Court Justices ruled that the war on drugs meant that native people couldn't use peyote in their religious ceremonies. One wrote that religion does not mean immunity to the law. Apparently they only meant non-Christian religions practiced by brown people didn't get immunity from the law. As always white Christians are exempt from the laws other people must follow.
posted by sotonohito at 12:23 PM on April 8, 2020 [148 favorites]


An open letter to Catholic bishops calling for public mass and access to the holy sacraments is gaining traction online, pushed by a newly-formed group of theologians and ministers calling itself the Easter People. “Something is terribly wrong with a culture that allows abortion clinics and liquor stores to remain open but shuts down places of worship,” the group said.

I see we're just openly advocating for theocracy now.
posted by BungaDunga at 12:25 PM on April 8, 2020 [40 favorites]


Being in a large group of people who are singing together is one of the worst things you can do right now. It's easy to see why when you think about how vocal cords work and that everyone is drawing deep breaths.
posted by sjswitzer at 12:25 PM on April 8, 2020 [57 favorites]


One of the better-documented super-spreading events in the US so far was a choral practice, and the source of it was either asymptomatic or pre-symptomatic, so. Absolutely the worst case scenario short of getting together to cough on each other.
posted by BungaDunga at 12:29 PM on April 8, 2020 [58 favorites]


Whatever happened to "wherever two of you gather, there I am?" Can God not work over Zoom?

This has to be all about money, right? Is it harder to pass that digital collection plate?
posted by muddgirl at 12:29 PM on April 8, 2020 [89 favorites]


For example, 45/60 participants infected, 2 dead (at press time). Ahh, jinx.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 12:30 PM on April 8, 2020 [13 favorites]


Attention sociologists and epidemiologists of the future: This glorious chance at a nationwide case study has been wrapped up in a bow and gifted to you by this decade's idiots. Have fun with it.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 12:33 PM on April 8, 2020 [29 favorites]


I belong to the Church of Huffing Each Other; we believe that the holy pneuma is best transformed into pneumonia to enact God's will. Of course we also believe that God is a bacillus and humans are multicellular monstrosities (except for Trump, he's our man).
posted by benzenedream at 12:33 PM on April 8, 2020 [13 favorites]


The virus doesn't know what building it's in.

A number of affected pastors have specifically claimed that the congregations will be protected by divine providence. Yes, really. So, presumably, the virus will know exactly where it is, and will just sorta slide on down the road to the local bar instead.
posted by aramaic at 12:34 PM on April 8, 2020 [24 favorites]


Am Catholic and live a block from my church -- and no way are we going back until the Department of Health says it's OK. What faith I have is in me, not in some bricks and boards and glass.

The Pope said a month ago that we're NOT going to be in church for a while, but that it doesn't impair our relationship with God: “united to Christ, we are never alone.”

In other words: stay home, your church is people, not a building.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:35 PM on April 8, 2020 [74 favorites]


For many seniors this is one of the few large social gatherings they frequent on a regular basis - this is a nightmare waiting to happen on Easter.
posted by Selena777 at 12:36 PM on April 8, 2020 [6 favorites]


Making an exception for churches is dumb, but I’m here to report that I don’t know a single pastor who is holding services now, and I’m in contact with several hundred pastors. It’s possible there are a lot of morons not represented in my social circle, but from my vantage point the vast majority of churches are handling this responsibly.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 12:36 PM on April 8, 2020 [80 favorites]


As always, these are performative Religious People, and not actual do-good-works believers. Please don't shit on sincere people who are correctly staying home.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:37 PM on April 8, 2020 [60 favorites]


Uh, the author of that "Easter People" web site has a picture of a goddam Hobbit on his "about me" page: https://easterpeople.me/about/

And he doesn't even capitalize the word "Mass" -- some Catholic, not even splitting hairs properly.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:42 PM on April 8, 2020 [9 favorites]


I'm a resident of one of the deepest red states, which apparently has some sort of exemption for religious services, but every church I see around here with any kind of banner or display says that they're closed. I'm sure there are some church that is opened, but I think there is a lot more nonessential contact going on at various "essential" businesses still operating like Home Depot, fast food, and people just hanging out (which I see a fair amount of kids doing).
posted by skewed at 12:42 PM on April 8, 2020 [15 favorites]


I'm getting random missing characters (Safari, Mac) on this page, is this something deliberate I am unaware of?

Anyone who goes to one of these services is a suicidal moron and the only bad thing is that they are not forcibly prohibited from mixing with the rest of society.
posted by epo at 12:45 PM on April 8, 2020 [3 favorites]


I don't see why you can't just stay in the car with the windows rolled up and they can slide the Holy Spirit right into your trunk
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 12:47 PM on April 8, 2020 [24 favorites]


Uh, the author of that "Easter People" web site has a picture of a goddam Hobbit on his "about me" page: https://easterpeople.me/about/

Ah, he appears to be an adult convert from evangelical christianity to Catholicism. Convert zeal is a hell of a drug.
posted by jedicus at 12:47 PM on April 8, 2020 [8 favorites]


This is not about money. It is about people clinging to things that bring them comfort. And I include myself in that.

Churches absolutely must be shut down. But Holy Week is a BIG DEAL. Not being permitted to have communion--(and yes, in the Catholic, Orthodox and Episcopal churches, you cannot do communion over Zoom)--is a BIG DEAL, especially at this time. For many older people, this is their one source of socializing, and it's their one source of comfort in an uncertain world that is getting scarier by the day. I'm not in that group, and yet I was literally in tears several times over the past couple weeks thinking about a Holy Week and Easter without communion.

It is a sacrifice that absolutely must be made, and I'm grateful that many religious leaders have stepped up and explicitly expressed this and shown real leadership on the issue (for example, the Episcopal bishops have shut down in-person church and are abstaining from communion and [cough] STRONGLY ENCOURAGING all priests to do so too, so that even though priests COULD have it while quarantined, they WON'T till everyone can partake). I'm sure other denominations and other religions have leaders who are taking similar steps.

I am incredibly frustrated by the religious leaders who won't make the sacrifice, and by the politicians who are caving to them. Part of being a religious leader is making hard decisions like this, and the buck absolutely stops with them. This is their failing, and blood is on their hands.
posted by branca at 12:48 PM on April 8, 2020 [52 favorites]


Every pastor in these states should be reminding his congregants about that time that Jesus went into the wilderness alone for over a month (but substitute "home" for "wilderness") and then say "Go and do likewise".
posted by vverse23 at 12:50 PM on April 8, 2020 [23 favorites]


The Boozy Barrister addressed this in his most recent post: Fundamental Friday: You Don’t Have A Constitutional Right To Infect.
posted by Lexica at 12:52 PM on April 8, 2020 [11 favorites]


> People remaining alive and healthy is also a BIG DEAL.

Yes, which is something branca clearly understands and believes should be prioritized if you read every other sentence in their post except the one you're responding to. I'm not religious, but I do appreciate the perspectives of those who are. Shouting them down when they agree with the order to shut down serves no constructive purpose.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:53 PM on April 8, 2020 [31 favorites]


As far as I was able to figure out, the vast majority of churches are closed, and many are trying to offer zoom, chat, and streaming services, with various forms of personal contact that don't require actually being physically in the same room.

And then there's these idiots. A handful in every state, ranging from "we have digital services but we're also available for hospital visits (!!) and in-person services for those who just can't get the hang of the phone/computer thing," to "the government has no power over my megachurch!"

And since most of them are in the states that have specific exemptions for church services, there's no chance they're all going to be arrested or quarantined to keep them from the rest of us. Sigh.

(The real hard part is - while there are some pastors/ministers/priests doing this for ego-based reasons, a lot of them are trying to offer comfort as best they know how, and it's really really hard to convince people that their comfort method is currently getting a lot of people killed.)
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:53 PM on April 8, 2020 [4 favorites]


I mentioned this in another thread but 3/4 of the cases in Bloemfontein here in SA (around 50 of 80 cases) came from a single church service where five people were initially infected.
posted by PenDevil at 12:56 PM on April 8, 2020 [14 favorites]


An open letter to Catholic bishops calling for public mass and access to the holy sacraments is gaining traction online

This is because Catholic bishops have shut down churches in keeping with the stay-at-home orders. Yes, there are some crazy Catholic people advocating to reopen, but I'm Catholic, and my experience is that bishops have been acting responsibly. Even before my church shut down public Masses, they were advising the elderly and immunocompromised to stay home and watch Mass online.

Can we criticize these individuals without getting into "religion is terrible" and using this thread to bring up all of the issues people have with religion in general? I'm pretty sure the answer is no, but I'm going to ask anyway.
posted by FencingGal at 12:58 PM on April 8, 2020 [34 favorites]


Was pleasantly surprised to not see Utah on the list. A certain Utah headquartered religion seems to be taking it fairly seriously (well best I can tell from the outside).
posted by inflatablekiwi at 1:00 PM on April 8, 2020 [10 favorites]


In other news, an appeals court upheld Texas’ closing of abortion clinics as “nonessential”. Tell me again about this separation-of-church-and-state idea...it sounds like such a fantastic concept.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:01 PM on April 8, 2020 [19 favorites]


skewed, I was about to say something similar.

Most churches have found ways to keep their members safe. The Governor of NM even highlighted one church for drive-in style sermons or something like that -- everyone drove there but sat in their cars.

To show you that religious groups are taking this seriously, and in relationship to branca's comment about holy week, Annual pilgrimages canceled, churches offer alternative services for Easter Sunday (KOAT, April 7, 2020).

This is big for New Mexico. Thousands trek to Chimayo for annual Good Friday pilgrimage (KRQE, April 19, 2019)
It’s a tradition that has been around for more than 200 years. Thousands of people make the yearly pilgrimage to El Santuario de Chimayo, joining together to pray and worship before Easter Sunday.

It’s a tradition passed down through generations. People wait for hours to get into El Santuario de Chimayo to get a blessing on Good Friday.

“I love this place. It’s so peaceful, calming and just give your prayers to the Lord,” said Sandra Apodaca of Albuquerque.

By car, by bike and by foot, people from all over the world made the pilgrimage to El Santuario de Chimayo this Holy Week.
There's also the (cancelled) pilgrimage to Tome Hill (Trip Savvy).
posted by filthy light thief at 1:01 PM on April 8, 2020 [9 favorites]


Mod note: A couple comments deleted. Please don't say it would be good for people to die.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:03 PM on April 8, 2020 [30 favorites]


This has to be all about money, right?

Maybe a little for some. But the far right has really become cult-like and one of the major tenets is still the early propaganda that the whole situation is way overblown and that this is just the flu being overhyped by the media to damage Trump.

Some genuinely believe that their god will intervene for them and they aren't actually at risk, especially for going to church.

And for some it's a bit of death cult - this is the equivalent of people that are certain that they'd go out in a blaze of glory if the police showed up to take away their guns. This is their "my cold dead hands moment."
posted by Candleman at 1:05 PM on April 8, 2020 [15 favorites]


A colleague is leading his church's weekly JW (I think) services via Zoom.

My friend is doing all the religious ed for the mosque where her husband is imam also via Zoom.

This is a thing confined to fundie loons, not to Christians.
posted by wenestvedt at 1:05 PM on April 8, 2020 [8 favorites]


I can see how some fundamentalist churches might see this as a test of faith: the ones who will die will be found lacking. It could even be a means of immanentizing the eschaton. I don't believe there are many groups who are actively aiming for that, though.

When the lockdown first started, there were a few fringe mosques around Toronto who claimed immunity from the law. It seems they all closed down quickly.
posted by scruss at 1:07 PM on April 8, 2020 [4 favorites]


This has to be all about money, right?

Not necessarily: I use direct draft on our Visa card to give, so that our parish can continue its good works. I think that's increasingly popular, with passed basket "second collections" usually being for special causes.

But thanks for implying that every religious person is as corrupt as the bishop in "Robin Hood"!
posted by wenestvedt at 1:07 PM on April 8, 2020 [6 favorites]


Pikuach nefesh! Pikuach nefesh! This is not hard! I get that it's not part of Christian traditions, but cmon! And so help me god If I see people at seders I'm gonna be pissed- we have a thing for this!
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 1:07 PM on April 8, 2020 [21 favorites]


Freedom of death cult is protected by the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:08 PM on April 8, 2020 [3 favorites]


Reads like the Republican Party has no further use for the evangelical fundamentalist portion of its base.
posted by furtive_jackanapes at 1:14 PM on April 8, 2020 [12 favorites]


yeah, it's not that fringe if state governments think it's political suicide to order churches to close. which is why they aren't ordering churches to close.

it's going to kill a lot of people.
posted by schadenfrau at 1:27 PM on April 8, 2020 [11 favorites]


The NM governor has been doing the right things for COVID-19 protection in the state, so I was surprised that churches were given an exemption here.

I just googled churches near me here in Albuquerque, and out of the 6 or so websites the closest I've come to in-person worship is a church that's inviting people to a service where they stay in their cars in the parking lot and listen on the radio.

The catholic archdiocese put out a press release titled "This Holy Week HOME Is the Holy Place Stay home, practice social distancing. Together, we can save lives."

I believe that catholics are majority in this state, and it looks as though they're following the guidelines.
posted by SteveInMaine at 1:28 PM on April 8, 2020 [7 favorites]


But thanks for implying that every religious person is as corrupt as the bishop in "Robin Hood"!

They did nothing of the sort.
posted by Everyone Expects The Spanish Influenza at 1:29 PM on April 8, 2020 [17 favorites]


Mod note: A few comments deleted. Also please don't turn this into an opportunity to take broad swipes at all religions, all believers, lol skywizard, religions are cults, etc. That stuff sucks and targets a lot of people who aren't the people you're probably thinking of when you say it.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:29 PM on April 8, 2020 [40 favorites]


This is probably about money for some of these pastors but it's definitely about ego for all of them.

From what we know a good chunk of Covid 19 infections are asymptomatic. Many infected people will get sick and survive and a few will die. That's the ideal setup to generate stories of how god, and Pastor Smith, protected his followers from the pandemic. It goes without saying that those infections spread at services will kill many vulnerable people but those deaths won't be mentioned in the stories.
posted by rdr at 1:30 PM on April 8, 2020 [9 favorites]


This is where they got the term "mass infection."
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 1:32 PM on April 8, 2020 [9 favorites]


My quaker meeting set up a Zoom! Kind of the oddest video conference I've been on these past few weeks :)
posted by The Ted at 1:33 PM on April 8, 2020 [31 favorites]


aramaic: "A number of affected pastors have specifically claimed that the congregations will be protected by divine providence."

I was completely taken aback by this video of a CNN reporter interviewing congregants leaving an Ohio church service (attended by at least 70 people), including a man who claimed to be the pastor. They were unconcerned about catching the virus or passing it on to others because they're "covered in Jesus' blood" and the blood of Jesus "cures every disease", citing Psalms 91.

Since I'm not familiar with Psalms 91 I went to look it up online, and I found comments from people who think that this Easter is going to be a new Passover and that placing a red ribbon over their door to represent their faith will protect them from COVID-19.
posted by Secret Sparrow at 1:33 PM on April 8, 2020 [19 favorites]


A number of affected pastors have specifically claimed that the congregations will be protected by divine providence. Yes, really. So, presumably, the virus will know exactly where it is, and will just sorta slide on down the road to the local bar instead.

It's fine to call on God but row away from the rocks dude!

This has to be all about money, right?

Some of the more opportunistic mega/commercial churches I think there is a fear that if people stay away for a month the church will lose momentum and those followers might end up going to other churches when things open back up. If only because they might go shopping around for other online services and discover a pastor/service they like more. I mean I've been sitting around watching guys make end grain cutting boards for hours at a time; there must be some people who are spending all day watching various church services.
posted by Mitheral at 1:37 PM on April 8, 2020 [15 favorites]


A number of affected pastors have specifically claimed that the congregations will be protected by divine providence.

I believe the appropriate scriptural response is, "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord they God."

This reminds me of the snake handlers.
posted by FencingGal at 1:40 PM on April 8, 2020 [10 favorites]


If this is supposed to be a new Passover, how would red ribbons over doors help? Please go all the way and use blood.
posted by fiercecupcake at 1:45 PM on April 8, 2020 [8 favorites]


"Lord thy God." Ugh. Missed the edit window.
posted by FencingGal at 1:46 PM on April 8, 2020 [1 favorite]


 Kind of the oddest video conference I've been on these past few weeks :)

I think an unprogrammed MFW would be the worst kind of videocon. The camera would switch to whoever made a noise, so you'd mostly get sneezes followed by sheepish looks.
posted by scruss at 1:46 PM on April 8, 2020 [7 favorites]


If the churches can accept a CARES income check or receive funds for a government program of any kind, then they can goddamn-well follow government no-contact rules.
posted by drivingmenuts at 1:49 PM on April 8, 2020 [21 favorites]


It's so wild to me that the whole notion of church and state separation is supposed to mean that we treat religious institutions with indifference to their religion but that over the years religious conservatives have captured gov't so much that what it means now is that we have to treat religious institutions as if laws simply don't apply to them. Shit sucks! Tax the church!
posted by dis_integration at 1:49 PM on April 8, 2020 [43 favorites]


But thanks for implying that every religious person is as corrupt as the bishop in "Robin Hood"!

I didn't, unless every religious person is directly defying orders to avoid gatherings and shelter in place. I didn't even imply that no one should feel bad about missing in-person communion - this is obviously not an ideal situation for anyone in the world right now.

But the motivation of religious leaders that are putting church attendance ahead of the actual health of their congregation should be highly suspect.
posted by muddgirl at 1:50 PM on April 8, 2020 [31 favorites]


So I absolutely agree that holding religious services right now is a terrible, irresponsible, bad idea. However...

The American approach to quarantine and lockdown we're doing right now is on very shaky legal ground. In many places the orders to stay at home are framed as requests, or voluntary, or at worst a light misdemeanor. None of these orders have been challenged in court. And while in the US local governments do have some broad power in emergency quarantine measures, nothing this large scale has been tested in a long time.

The freedom to practice religion is buried deep in our Constitution, right there in the First Amendment. So is the right to assemble, again in the First Amendment. I would like to think any reasonable court would agree a blanket, temporary ban on religious assembly would be permissible given the current health emergency. But I can also see why no governor would want to pick that particular legal fight if they can avoid it.

What I hate is the way some states, particularly Florida, lean into allowing religious gatherings. They're posturing in public as a way to get votes of people who value religion more than public health. They are literally behaving like a death cult.
posted by Nelson at 1:54 PM on April 8, 2020 [8 favorites]


I was raised Methodist, so maybe I'm missing something here, but couldn't the priests just pre-bless packages of single-serve communion wine and bread, have them distributed to parishioners who request it, and let them know when the broadcast/livestream is scheduled?

Single-serving communion wine cups are definitely a thing, the last time I was out shopping baggies were not in short supply, and given that I've seen everything from oyster crackers to flatbread to Wonderbread as the "body" part of the sacrament it doesn't seem too hard to find some sort of pre-packaged ready-to-be-blessed product to include. I know some sects have issues with anyone other than a priest or other sanctified individual touching the things, but since it is going to touch you anyway during consumption I would think a temporary exemption could be made. Just have some of the lay helpers do a drive-by dropoff during the week, and accept that some people will abuse it, just as humans abuse everything, and move on.

I do remember the controversy when the church my family attended decided to make the radical change from grape juice and oyster crackers to actual wine (with a non-alcoholic option) and real bread, which lasted all of about a month before it became the new normal.
posted by Blackanvil at 2:00 PM on April 8, 2020 [2 favorites]


While there have been some very minor complaints from religious fanatics, one thing I'm quite happy about right now is living in a country where most people don't give a flying fuck about religion.
posted by Dumsnill at 2:00 PM on April 8, 2020 [5 favorites]


A number of affected pastors have specifically claimed that the congregations will be protected by divine providence.

That's because those other churches, where a lot of people got infected, aren't practicing the correct doctrine, and so are not benefiting from divine providence.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 2:09 PM on April 8, 2020 [7 favorites]


But thanks for implying that every religious person is as corrupt as the bishop in "Robin Hood"!

I overreacted; I apologize.
posted by wenestvedt at 2:22 PM on April 8, 2020 [1 favorite]


My quaker meeting set up a Zoom! Kind of the oddest video conference I've been on these past few weeks :)

For real. I can imagine a Zoom conference with a bunch of people looking down at books and reading quietly.

I love it. I really hope that's what it was like. The only downside? No potlucks!
posted by deadaluspark at 2:29 PM on April 8, 2020 [3 favorites]


The Ted: My quaker meeting set up a Zoom! Kind of the oddest video conference I've been on these past few weeks :)

Not even being snarky here: was there a point where you wondered if you got disconnected or if everyone was simply maintaining silence? I'm just trying to imagine what this must have been like and it is fascinating.
posted by fader at 2:37 PM on April 8, 2020 [10 favorites]


My quaker meeting set up a Zoom! Kind of the oddest video conference I've been on these past few weeks

Dear Religious Society of Friends
Recently I joined one of your so-called “Quaker” zoom meetings, thinking I was going to participate in some hardcore Quake online gameplay. You can imagine my surprise when not one other person was ready to attack the hell-spawn. I am most disappointed.

Yours in good health,
Scourge of Armagon
posted by inflatablekiwi at 2:43 PM on April 8, 2020 [20 favorites]


It's not just America.
Globally organized religion more often at the fundamentalist end is proving to be a huge problem in not containing the spread of covid-19.
Israel Ultra-Orthodox Jews
Pakistan Tablighi Jamaat
Brazil Evangelicals.
Russian Orthodox
S. Korea and patient 31
Africa - tension between faith and science.
posted by adamvasco at 2:44 PM on April 8, 2020 [16 favorites]


I think for a lot of people especially in the US, church (specifically: Christian church) is the basis of their social life. You take that away and from their point of view it's tantamount to social execution. Many of these people would happily risk the virus.

It's pretty easy for someone like me who has resources and networks and whatnot to hang out on the couch like a tuber for X months (I'm awesome like that), but for people whose eggs are all in the church basket this must be an incredibly unpleasant experience for them.

Bottom line: if someone you care about is fretting enough about church to consider risking infection and death this Easter by attending services, reach out to them and provide them with the social care they plainly need.
posted by um at 2:47 PM on April 8, 2020 [13 favorites]


Blackanvil, that would not work for Catholics for a few reasons. The easiest to explain is that the bread and wine are considered sacred, and Catholics take that very seriously, so you can’t drop them off somewhere and hope for the best.
posted by FencingGal at 2:48 PM on April 8, 2020 [5 favorites]




It makes me very sad to think that we might lose a disproportionate number of people who are more trusting and faithful than I am.
posted by amtho at 2:59 PM on April 8, 2020 [2 favorites]


One of the reasons for the lockdown in South Africa lasting to the end of Easter was to prevent the annual pilgrimage of the Zion Christian Church to their HQ in Limpopo Province, which would put some million or more pilgrims in extremely close contact before sending them back all over SA.
posted by PenDevil at 3:05 PM on April 8, 2020 [1 favorite]


In oral arguments, Hynes noted there have been 44 cases of the coronavirus in New Hampshire with two people hospitalized and no deaths.

“There are more dog bites during that time, more car accidents, certainly more people getting sick from flu than this,” Hynes said.

Kissinger noted that since the lawsuit was filed, the state’s number of COVID-19 cases has more than doubled.

The judge said the emergency restrictions are “narrowly tailored” and will expire on April 3 unless the governor extends them.
That was March 20. Less than 3 weeks later, current numbers are 3472 cases in New Hampshire and 63 deaths. (The order was extended.)
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 3:06 PM on April 8, 2020 [21 favorites]


Thank you, homo neanderthalensis, for that phrase “Pikuach nefesh.” Sadly, not all Jews are applying it to covid. I mentioned the concept when i was trying to convince my brother (in manhattan) not to celebrate passover with friends - but his orthodox rabbi said he can’t zoom, and he says it’s not halachically correct to be unhappy (ie home alone) on the holiday. (I think i talked him out of sabbath - for now - but it’s all i could do.)
posted by anshuman at 3:06 PM on April 8, 2020 [10 favorites]


There's a post bouncing around Tumblr (screencapped from Facebook) about Passover this year:

Point: if you’re not eating matzah next week, you’re not keeping kosher for passover.

Counterpoint: actually, the principle of pikuach nefesh, the saving of a life, means that it’s acceptable to eat chametz this week to avoid going to the grocery store.

SUPERPOINT: ACTUALLY, anything that you scrounge together from odds and ends while huddled fearfully in your home, consumed by the dread knowledge that remaining indoors is the only way to prevent plague from wreaking death in your community, is about a MILLION TIMES MORE KOSHER FOR PASSOVER THAN ANYTHING YOU’VE EVER EATEN IN YOUR WHOLE-ASS LIFE.

Stay safe, friends. Chag sameach. May the Angel of Death pass over all of our houses.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 3:12 PM on April 8, 2020 [111 favorites]


from "we have digital services but we're also available for hospital visits (!!)

This is hugely different from irresponsible religious services in my view. Priests offering viaticum to the dying are not endangering anyone but themselves. The person receiving it and all others they will interact with are beyond risk of infection.
They are risking their own lives to make the last days or hours of someone else’s life peaceful, rather than full of struggle and fear.
posted by corb at 3:20 PM on April 8, 2020 [13 favorites]


So, presumably, the virus will know exactly where it is, and will just sorta slide on down the road to the local bar instead.

The bar/restaurant down the street from our church has "clergy parking" signs, and when my wife got ordained we went there and took a picture of her car parked in one of those spots.

We live in Georgia, where alcohol isn't served until 12:30 on Sundays (well, in non-pandemic times). Our church usually ends right around 12:00. At least once she preached and then we went there for lunch after and it feels really unfair that we had to wait to have beers.
posted by madcaptenor at 3:22 PM on April 8, 2020 [4 favorites]


Also, Lent is basically the original quarantine. 40 days, motherfuckers, it's right there in the name.
posted by madcaptenor at 3:26 PM on April 8, 2020 [8 favorites]


As my last comment was wiped:
Pope Francis: Religious fundamentalism is a ‘plague
From his live streamed Palm Sunday Mass in an empty St. Peters:
"The tragedy we are experiencing summons us to take seriously the things that are serious," Francis said, "and not to be caught up in those that matter less; to rediscover that life is of no use if not used to serve others."
posted by adamvasco at 3:28 PM on April 8, 2020 [9 favorites]


Priests offering viaticum to the dying are not endangering anyone but themselves.

Maybe I missed the part where they're going to stay in the hospital, and not go back out among the rest of the population? The sentiment is nice, but those visits are still risking spread of the virus.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 3:36 PM on April 8, 2020 [20 favorites]


If churches are essential businesses that need to stay open during a global pandemic, then it is time to start taxing them as businesses.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:36 PM on April 8, 2020 [38 favorites]


If you're about to start serving an eternity in Boschian or metaphorical hell, then of course it is essential that you (or better yet society) pay me to save you while you still have the chance.
posted by Dumsnill at 3:46 PM on April 8, 2020 [1 favorite]


church is the basis of their social life. You take that away and from their point of view it's tantamount to social execution.

Same, but it's the gay bar and Grindr hookups.
posted by Nelson at 3:49 PM on April 8, 2020 [16 favorites]


Maybe I missed the part where they're going to stay in the hospital, and not go back out among the rest of the population? The sentiment is nice, but those visits are still risking spread of the virus.

For what it's worth, my wife is a hospital chaplain. They went remote about three weeks ago. My understanding is that the only people working at the hospital now are the ones that physically need to be there to do their jobs - medical staff, cleaning, and cafeteria. Everyone who does office work (billing, etc.) and even the people whose job is mostly about talking to patients (chaplains, social workers, etc.) are at home.
posted by madcaptenor at 5:07 PM on April 8, 2020 [9 favorites]


Matthew 6:

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

posted by TheWhiteSkull at 5:11 PM on April 8, 2020 [11 favorites]


US, church (specifically: Christian church) is the basis of their social life. You take that away and from their point of view it's tantamount to social execution.

Everyone else has to sacrifice the "basis of their social lives." Work. The gym. The cafe. Bars. Clubs. ALL public gatherings of any sort. These the basis of social lives for the rest of us.

Why is it that these Christians feel they are so special that they need not sacrifice like the rest of their fellow citizens? Frankly, that's not very "Christian" of them.
posted by Everyone Expects The Spanish Influenza at 5:13 PM on April 8, 2020 [58 favorites]


Same, but it's the gay bar and Grindr hookups.

Or football, or Service Club, or Local Pub, or Nightly dancing, or Gym, or the maker space, or, or, or. I'd bet half the people I know have essentially a single social activity their whole non-work life revolves around.

And unlike the maker space or dancing or softball or other things that really need people to meet in groups; church services can be handled remotely.
posted by Mitheral at 5:19 PM on April 8, 2020 [6 favorites]


Turns out Grindr hookups can be handled remotely too ;-)
posted by Nelson at 5:36 PM on April 8, 2020 [6 favorites]


And a lot of those people would be going to those non-church social groups if they were exempted from shut-down orders. You can see them crowding beaches and parks, with no belief in God required for their stupidity.

These governors are exempting religious services, and a lot of religious people are acting like people instead of voluntarily shutting down (and a lot are voluntarily closing their doors). I put a lot of the blame on the politicians who are afraid of offending a small number of mostly fundamentalist Christians, at least in the US.
posted by FencingGal at 5:48 PM on April 8, 2020 [6 favorites]


The people who go to these will be:

Willful assholes who don't believe in listening to experts;
True believer fanatics who are basically taking the snake-handling approach to the virus (if you're devout enough, God will protect you);
People not quite that extreme but giving in to social pressure;
Their innocent kids and/or coerced spouses who are forced to go.

No one should want to be in any of those groups
posted by emjaybee at 5:56 PM on April 8, 2020 [13 favorites]


I think a lot of mainstream churches are being sensible.

That kind of leaves Prosperity Gospel: Endgame.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:06 PM on April 8, 2020 [7 favorites]


I was listening to Dan Savage this week and there was a recording of some lady repeatedly bragging that she was covered in the blood of Christ and thus protected. Oh good god.

We're going to have a lot less people in the South after this.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:17 PM on April 8, 2020 [1 favorite]


That was Ohio and the clip was posted above
posted by Ahmad Khani at 6:25 PM on April 8, 2020 [3 favorites]


Thou shalt not tempt the Lord they God

Is that really from the bible?

"Well I wasn't going to smite him, but he triple dog dared me."
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:30 PM on April 8, 2020 [12 favorites]


Is that really from the bible?

Old AND New Testaments. (Deuteronomy 6:16, Luke 4:12)
posted by AsYouKnow Bob at 6:39 PM on April 8, 2020 [8 favorites]


Luddites. 4:20.
and shall cometh to pass the wheel of the LXXX oppossing pharoahs chariots. For 12 cubits upon the temple marks hours in the day kept on a scroll, sold to farmers and lyre stars. hed /not these devices for they exist not.
posted by clavdivs at 7:10 PM on April 8, 2020 [1 favorite]


It took a lot of "trust and faith" for people in all the locked-down states to voluntarily shut themselves in their house and lose their jobs/social life, over what many people, in our government specifically, called "the same as the flu". There are no doubt many places without a single COVID-19 infection or death - even if there was, those people are at the hospital and out of sight, out of mind.

Almost no one in the US has experienced a pandemic, much less one that overwhelms the medical system.

Leadership is at the most fault here.
posted by meowzilla at 7:25 PM on April 8, 2020 [4 favorites]


Every pastor in these states should be reminding his congregants about that time that Jesus went into the wilderness alone for over a month (but substitute "home" for "wilderness") and then say "Go and do likewise".

They've already been doing likewise, in a way. That's what Lent is, is a reminder of the time Jesus went into the wilderness and suffered before He began his ministry. Easter is meant to put an end to that emulation.

These days, of course, we should extend it further. But that's an argument that just may not fly as well as one might hope.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:46 PM on April 8, 2020 [4 favorites]


From my time in conservative christianity, it seems we had a story we told ourselves about persecution and control, particularly by outside authority figures; especially governments that wanted to shut down the church. The current situation unfortunately plays right into that fear of repression.

However, the people I know who are all still in that circle are for the most part attending only virtual services, because one of their churchgoers died of the virus and others have been seriously, frighteningly ill. All the people I thought would be snorting at social distancing etc (and in fact were a few weeks ago) are now taking things very seriously.
posted by bunderful at 8:02 PM on April 8, 2020 [6 favorites]


Was pleasantly surprised to not see Utah on the list. A certain Utah headquartered religion seems to be taking it fairly seriously (well best I can tell from the outside).

from what I know the LDS church has a bit of a prepper streak that is probably doing some good for their membership here
posted by atoxyl at 8:31 PM on April 8, 2020 [9 favorites]


These idiots invented televangelism decades ago so they could get money from shut-ins who couldn't visit church in person. Why is this a problem for them all of a sudden?
posted by queensissy at 9:54 PM on April 8, 2020 [10 favorites]


If this is supposed to be a new Passover, how would red ribbons over doors help? Please go all the way and use blood.

There is blood on everyone's doorpost. It's the blood of essential labor that goes out while those of us who can stay home do.

(Not that staying home is merely selfish, it's essential too, but it's a contribution that increases personal security rather than reduces it.)

from what I know the LDS church has a bit of a prepper streak that is probably doing some good for their membership here

When I had my freakout a month ago on realizing just how likely things were to get bad, I'm *very* grateful that it wasn't even a week later the LDS church backed me up to my parents (who were still "this is like the flu" when I told them they needed to be prepared to stay at home for weeks at a time and to be extra careful) by shutting down meetings. No matter what you believe, in Utah an announcement that church meetings are cancelled indefinitely is one that overcomes normalcy bias.

But it turned out those decades of past prepping prophecies have gotten farther and fewer between and a little more niche as cultural currency, so Utahns turned out to rank high on comparisons of panic grocery shopping by state.

Not that I was particularly different, just a few days ahead of everyone where I'm at.
posted by weston at 10:11 PM on April 8, 2020 [6 favorites]


Happily, most churches in my neck of the woods are doing the right thing. On the bright side, it is exposing the grifters running the Evangelical megachurches for who they are, since they are the only ones still holding in-person services. Even the Catholics are doing virtual services for Easter, despite earlier worries to the contrary.

I linked an article from the Miami Herald a couple of weeks back that quoted one pastor as explicitly claiming that God would not allow the virus to infect people in a house of worship. He later went on to claim Mr. President was watching and surely approved in a quote that seemed almost to mean that said pastor believes Trump is God come to Earth, or has at least been granted supernatural powers like Jesus.

(American) Evangelism has truly and finally, at long last, become an explicit death cult. Should the more pessimistic models turn out to be true, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a run on Flavor-Aid before the pandemic is over.

I was pretty sure a lot of them had lost it before, but their recent words and deeds have made it entirely undeniable. No longer can I say that there is a chance I'm just misunderstanding them. (A them I was brought up to respect, mind)
posted by wierdo at 10:58 PM on April 8, 2020 [9 favorites]


I have some anecdotal data regarding Utah and the LDS in this. My sister works as a traveling nurse and has recently been stationed in Utah. While the LDS is indeed shut down and urging its members to stay home, the nursing staff at the hospital where she works are not taking COVID seriously. Their position is that it might be a problem in "dirty cities" like New York City, but it won't be a problem in good clean Salt Lake City because [reasons]. We're both pretty sure that's code speak for "black people live in NYC".

So they're taking it sort of seriously in that social distancing is going on, but even among medical professionals there seems to be an it can't happen here attitude.
posted by sotonohito at 4:22 AM on April 9, 2020 [6 favorites]


One of my relatives is a sacristan, and they have discovered that their congregation has tripled after they locked down and turned to online services. They are probably getting those new members from other churches, so I can see how that might be a concern.

Blackanvil, that would not work for Catholics for a few reasons. The easiest to explain is that the bread and wine are considered sacred, and Catholics take that very seriously, so you can’t drop them off somewhere and hope for the best.
Once, I spent some time at a convent (I'm a fourth generation atheist and if I were anything it'd be Jewish, but it was interesting and very calming), and while I was there, they held a sort of course where they baked their own bread and brought the wine in from the convent's winery. Mass was in the dining hall. I think it was about returning to the basics, to Christ's christianity and those early Roman gatherings, and those guys would definitely find it OK to congregate at home. The Catholic Church is huge, and there are many interpretations within it.
posted by mumimor at 5:00 AM on April 9, 2020 [3 favorites]


My LDS daughter in Utah told me that after services were stopped, her ward was sending people to all the members’ houses for communion, which she thought was the best possible way to spread the virus. I don’t know if they’re still doing that. She also reports that playgrounds are full of kids and parents chatting. My granddaughter was invited to an escape room birthday party, but her parents didn’t let her go.
posted by FencingGal at 5:02 AM on April 9, 2020 [6 favorites]


A Louisiana pentecostal pastor who is refusing to abide by the state's "stay at home" order said "true Christians" see death as a "welcome friend."

"Like any zealot or like any pure religious person, death looks to them like a welcome friend. True Christians do not mind dying. They fear living in fear," Rev. Tony Spell, pastor of Life Tabernacle Church, told TMZ.
posted by Slothrup at 5:14 AM on April 9, 2020 [4 favorites]




"Like any zealot or like any pure religious person, death looks to them like a welcome friend. True Christians do not mind dying. They fear living in fear," Rev. Tony Spell, pastor of Life Tabernacle Church, told TMZ.
Terrorist.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 6:21 AM on April 9, 2020 [11 favorites]


Chicago archdiocese has trained 24 priests to give last rites to coronavirus victims.

I'm not in Chicago, but I've just assumed that last rites are off the table if I die from this, and that really bothers me.

My church did do drive-through confession though.

The Catholic Church is huge, and there are many interpretations within it.

I have no doubt that individual Catholics and even sisters do all kinds of things, but I doubt very much any Catholic church will change the actual meaning of the Catholic Eucharist, which is what your example does, due to the coronavirus.
posted by FencingGal at 6:41 AM on April 9, 2020 [3 favorites]


Maybe low levels of testing could skew the readings but I seems that the state population outside of these churches must be doing something right. Both Florida and Utah seem squarely in the middle of the pack and following the same general curves as the other states when you look at the bottom 91-VIDOC map, where the states are normalized by population.
posted by bonobothegreat at 7:09 AM on April 9, 2020


The craziest part of all this is that Saudi Arabia cancelled the Umrah (the anytime visit to Mecca) and is already making significant noises about cancelling the Hajj (the specific time visit to Mecca) which is a much bigger deal than any single Easter.

It's a struggle these day not to feel like America is becoming a strange barbaric backwater clinging desparately to old ways and that other cultures and nations which we have historically looked down upon are now doing far better at adapting than we are at lots of things.
posted by srboisvert at 7:22 AM on April 9, 2020 [38 favorites]


The way many Christian sects, including Catholics, do communion has been a germ farm and it should have been changed decades ago. A single cup that everyone drinks from is just not a good idea.

The Greek Orthodox Church uses a single shared spoon to dip out the wine, and in Australia already some Geek Orthodox Priests said that they'd keep doing it that way no matter the risk.

It has to change. Tradition is nice, but pre germ theory rituals need to adapt to modern understandings. Surely the miracle of transubstiantiation won't stop working if the Priest transfers the wine/blood into individual serving cups.

I note that it already has changed in that the laity gets wine at all. In the Middle Ages the laity only got the wafer, in part due to concern about spilling the wine. Clearly the way communion is performed can and has changed.

A change to preserve the health and safety of the faithful does not seem preposterous.
posted by sotonohito at 7:30 AM on April 9, 2020 [10 favorites]


When I was a child, Catholic churches did not give members of the congregation the wine at all. Only the priest took it. So that change was in my lifetime, in the early 60s with Vatican II. I quit taking the wine when I became immunocompromised because of the shared cup. My church quit offering wine due to the pandemic before they stopped public Masses altogether. Catholic doctrine is that body and blood are both fully present in both bread and wine. I'm wondering what changes there will be with the pandemic.
posted by FencingGal at 7:46 AM on April 9, 2020 [7 favorites]


Geek Orthodox Priests

Those are the people behind the counter at like, Fry's, right?
posted by axiom at 9:00 AM on April 9, 2020 [6 favorites]


I would think that if transubstantiation can happen at all, it can happen over Skype. It isn't the wafer that's important, or so I understood. The priest could bless your loaf.
posted by BeeDo at 9:26 AM on April 9, 2020 [3 favorites]


mumimor: I came here to post that article too and I'll do it again to excerpt and add a comment.

A funeral and a birthday party: CDC traces Chicago coronavirus outbreak to two family gatherings
At the funeral, Patient A1.1 hugged the friends who had been at the dinner and other family members to “express condolences.”
...
Around the same time, Patient A1.1, who was then still experiencing mild respiratory symptoms, attended a birthday party with nine other people. They hugged and shared food at the three-hour party. Seven of the attendees soon became ill.
...
Three of the symptomatic birthday party attendees went to church six days after developing their first symptoms. Another church attendee who sat within one row for 90 minutes, talked to them and passed the offering plate with them also developed symptoms.
I'll note again that funerals, birthday parties and church are occasions where people sing together in close quarters. That may well be one of the most effective ways to transmit the virus.

I'm having some second thoughts about the lovely emerging tradition of gathering on balconies at 8:00 to applaud medical workers. Let's hope they're just clapping and not cheering. Balconies can be pretty close quarters as well.

Well oops:
The phenomenon of people cheering in the evenings began in mid-January in the shut-down city of Wuhan in China, where the first social media posts recorded anonymous voices in the night, shouting from their high-rise apartment buildings a cry of “‘jiāyóu!” — which literally means “add oil,” but translates to “keep up the fight.”
The video from the UK showed just clapping, though.
posted by sjswitzer at 10:12 AM on April 9, 2020 [3 favorites]


I have a friend who is dreading the beginning of Ramadan. She can't go to work and she can't visit friends and her elderly parents with whom she is staying don't want her to go out on long walks and runs, so how is she supposed to distract herself during the day when she's fasting?!?
posted by ChuraChura at 10:55 AM on April 9, 2020 [1 favorite]


Even when balconies are close, they're not in a sealed room the way parties and church gatherings are, and I suspect that helps. The air isn't recirculating among the same people. And early evening should be the windiest time of the day - the temp change between day and night often makes it breezy, especially near high-rise apartments that trap the air and funnel it around.

(I spent several years as a street vendor on a busy street. We all became sharply aware of which buildings' shadows included extra wind that carried exhaust fumes.)
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:28 PM on April 9, 2020 [1 favorite]


Candleman: the far right has really become cult-like and one of the major tenets is still the early propaganda that the whole situation is way overblown and that this is just the flu being overhyped by the media to damage Trump.

Meanwhile, New Zealand isn’t just flattening the curve. It’s squashing it. (Washington Post, April 7, 2020) "The response has been notably apolitical. The center-right National Party has clearly made a decision not to criticize the government’s response — and in fact to help it."

If you want paint with broad strokes, it seems more and more like the GOP is supporting Trump's cult of personality, and now cult of death.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:38 PM on April 9, 2020 [17 favorites]


My general sense from my country is that all main stream parties have more or less agreed on the response to the virus.

We can get back to being irresponsible populist assholes about immigration, welfare, taxes etc later, but for now let's try to be adults. And it seems to be working well.
posted by Dumsnill at 1:15 PM on April 9, 2020 [4 favorites]


The Canadian right was pretty NoTaxes! NoSpending! NoPower! AnyActionsTakenAreAreASlipperySlopesToGulagsAndGaySpaceCommunism! & PoorInterpretationOfAntiTrumpSloganAppliedToTrudeau! three weeks ago that was bleeding through to rational social media. That has completely stopped. At least in my feeds, I'm not going looking for it.
posted by Mitheral at 2:01 PM on April 9, 2020


I’m honestly surprised that no one has brought up how much money that sweet Easter collection plate brings in. Easter is big money for churches, and as much as I appreciate that many people feel it’s important to minister during a crisis, I think it might be easier to get Christians to shut their churches at another time of year.
posted by bile and syntax at 2:11 PM on April 9, 2020 [1 favorite]


Maybe they can get corona to reschedule. Eh, probably not.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:45 PM on April 9, 2020


A religious congregation holds an Easter service, in defiance of orders of mass gatherings, despite COVID-19. When asked about it, the priest replied "God will protect us". Despite that, they all ended up dying. When they get to heaven, the priest walks up to God and says "Why did you let us die, oh Lord? Why did you not protect us?". God looks at the priest and replies "I sent the scientists, I sent the media, I sent a governor that tried to ban you from gathering. What more did you want?"
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 3:11 PM on April 9, 2020 [31 favorites]


Easter is big money for churches

This is why prosperity gospel is so...bankrupt. If the pastors don't get the big bucks, they can't afford the lavish lifestyle, and they've said that if you are living a Godly life, you will be materially rewarded, so suddenly they themselves are no longer able to demonstrate their godliness...
posted by warriorqueen at 4:55 PM on April 9, 2020 [5 favorites]


There was a huge debate raging on Facebook as to whether people could just put their own bread and wine next to their monitors for the priests to bless (I'm Episcopalian). The Admins of this particular group are firm adherents of "conforming to the doctrine, discipline, and worship of the church," and they shut it down completely.

All of our churches have been shut down since the second week of March, and have transitioned to online worship only. I agree with Branca up above who mentioned that some bishops and priests are fasting from receiving communion while their congregants are fasting. I know that some believe you can benefit from participating spiritually in Communion, but it's been very painful to see others, who are good churchgoers, reiterating that "this is like watching you eat dinner through a window and expected me to feel full."

It's going to be very interesting to see what happens as a result of all of this. On a side note, I've been serving the chalice for years, and would miss it, but can't deny that it would probably be safer if we all just received the bread. Of course, with this virus, you're more at risk if the priest touches your hand than if you just take a sip from the cup of wine.
posted by dancing_angel at 7:22 PM on April 9, 2020 [1 favorite]


Of course, with this virus, you're more at risk if the priest touches your hand than if you just take a sip from the cup of wine.

I'd caution that we don't yet know enough about the transmission of this virus and also venture that you're probably right. But it's the very act of congregating together (and singing and breathing together) that is most likely to spread the virus.
posted by sjswitzer at 8:24 PM on April 9, 2020 [1 favorite]


And the lunatic, Mammon-worshiping fringe has its own way of asserting its special privileges:
Liberty University President Jerry Falwell Jr. on Wednesday said that arrest warrants had been issued for reporters from The New York Times and ProPublica after both publications wrote stories criticizing his decision last month to partially reopen his Virginia-based college.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 5:23 AM on April 10, 2020 [2 favorites]


Wait a tick, the supposed warrants stem from sleuthing done by school cops? And ProPublica hasn't received them? "The arrest warrants are issued by a magistrate based on information derived from an investigation conducted by Liberty University Police Department, the police agency with primary jurisdiction, based on reports of criminal trespassing on posted property made by Liberty University," the university told The Hill in an email.

"We have not heard from the university or any authority from the commonwealth of Virginia," Dick Tofel, ProPublica president, told The Hill in regard to the arrest warrant. "We also have not heard anything from the university saying there is anything wrong in the story."

This press release at LU disputes the story, but makes no mention of warrants or trespassing. "Liberty University is very disappointed about the way the New York Times choose to handle its reporting about this story. Such media conduct contributes to the public’s record low approval ratings for news media and earns the label “fake news.
posted by furtive_jackanapes at 11:25 AM on April 10, 2020 [1 favorite]


coming a little late, but i just stumbled across this quote attributed to florence nightengale:
to understand god's thoughts we must study statistics, for these are the measure of his purpose.
posted this -- probably blasphemous, possibly offensive, but relevant -- in truthiness thread some time ago.
posted by 20 year lurk at 7:57 PM on April 10, 2020 [1 favorite]


As expected: Several churches, in multiple states held Easter services in person.

* Glorious Way Church in Texas, in the Champions Point area of north Harris County: ~120 people
* Several churches in Kansas, despite the Kansas Supreme Court ruling in favor of Gov. Laura Kelly's shutdown order. One pastor decided to use a loophole: He claimed all the attendees were members of the choir.
* 7 churches in Kentucky - attendees will be required to self-quarantine for 14 days.
* Life Tabernacle Church in Baton Rouge, Louisiana: 330+ people attending, - pastor arrested.
* Emmanuel Baptist Missionary Church in Jackson, Mississippi decided Easter was too important for the virtual services it's been holding.
* Emmaus Independent Baptist Church in Mount Carmel, Tennessee offered hand sanitizer and masks to about 100 attendees.
* Emmett, Idaho - Ammon Bundy held a service in a warehouse. (Bundy previously.)

And the DoJ is investigating whether churchgoers are being punished too harshly, compared to other people who "may have violated social distancing standards." (Are there other groups violating "don't gather in groups bigger than 10" orders? Because I don't think anyone's getting tickets for not staying 6 feet away from other people on the sidewalk as they walk past.)
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:21 AM on April 13, 2020 [1 favorite]




The Virginia pastor said “I firmly believe that God is larger than this dreaded virus. You can quote me on that.” Three weeks later, he's dead.

I'm not religious, but what kind of God encourages willful and dangerous foolishness?

I'm not a scientist, but I believe in science.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 4:59 AM on April 14, 2020 [1 favorite]


I mean, God is larger than the virus, but God also very specifically says you should not put yourself into shitty situations just to prove you’re specially chosen of God and he’ll definitely get you out of them.

It could also be viewed as throwing away the precious God-given gift of your life or treating it as though it has no value by reckless endangerment.
posted by corb at 6:32 AM on April 14, 2020 [2 favorites]


« Older The Little Story of Gwen   |   When sports start back, let the women go first Newer »


This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments