Elite Taekwondo and Elite BJJ go together like salt and pepper

J

Jpenwell14

Guest
I'm not sure whether this belongs in the grappling or striking discussion slot.

But basically from what I've seen this combo is about as useful as a boxing and wrestling combo, perhaps even moreso for a real fight.

One reason is because in open space, there is no cutting off and forcing your opponent in a corner. Another is the idea of the green zone red zone self defense strategy of the Gracie's.

Rolling into leg locks really seems to help you be able to throw kicks freely out of boxing range, as an opponent is likely afraid to take you down and if you fall down you aren't really in a bad position. Unlike frankie vs yair.

Also really powerful kicks can be so debilitating that an opponent becomes easier to take down as they rush in rather than avoiding the clinch and boxing as was the case in kron vs cub.

Plus there is the whole bareknuckle aspect (see bkfc) and the non compliant opponent aspect (see schaub vs cyborg).

Thoughts?
 
TKD isn't the type of thing where you impose your will.

What you say isn't making sense to me.

Example of a fighter doing this? Ryan Hall I guess, maybe buy other than that?
 
I see where you're coming from, it's basically Ryan Halls strategy. Dance on the outside and batter them with kicks, when they rush you drop to guard. The problem is almost no one in the world is good enough to be offensive on their back in high level MMA against good wrestle boxers. Getting to that level of guard proficiency means you won't have time to develop that level of kicking. But I don't think the idea is inherently wrong, just hard to develop.
 
I see where you're coming from, it's basically Ryan Halls strategy. Dance on the outside and batter them with kicks, when they rush you drop to guard. The problem is almost no one in the world is good enough to be offensive on their back in high level MMA against good wrestle boxers. Getting to that level of guard proficiency means you won't have time to develop that level of kicking. But I don't think the idea is inherently wrong, just hard to develop.

That's the mistake i see people making often. Dropping to your guard is a mistake. You have to use leg locks to sweep, take the back, stand back up or rip apart their knee mercilessly. I also think you have to get good at throws from an overhook position like jason morris so you can threaten to take the back, an arm, shuck someone off you, threaten with a front headlock or land in scarfhold position. I think you have to be able to jab with either hand as well and throw any kick with either foot.

So to me even though ryan hall is very talented, i see room for improvement and i understand its not the end all be all. I also think one side the equation without the other is incomplete.


Imagine if you will a brian ortega level jiu jitsu game with a yair Rodriguez level taekwondo game. This still isn't quite up to par with what I'm portraying here. Danaher death squad is more of my inspiration here.
 
TKD isn't the type of thing where you impose your will.

What you say isn't making sense to me.

Example of a fighter doing this? Ryan Hall I guess, maybe buy other than that?

It's unprecedented actually but in my mind my point is one without the other is naked and more lacking. If the highest level of mma is the goal, then the highest level of the parts that make up mma have to be mandatory.

A wrestler/boxer/lethwei fighter is one part. A no gi jitsuka/taekwondo/judoka is another part. That's just technique. Personally i think strength, conditioning, boxing movement and karate movement have to each be there own part also, separate from the technique. And i think an emphasis on fighting someone in open space is important
 
That's the mistake i see people making often. Dropping to your guard is a mistake. You have to use leg locks to sweep, take the back, stand back up or rip apart their knee mercilessly. I also think you have to get good at throws from an overhook position like jason morris so you can threaten to take the back, an arm, shuck someone off you, threaten with a front headlock or land in scarfhold position. I think you have to be able to jab with either hand as well and throw any kick with either foot.

So to me even though ryan hall is very talented, i see room for improvement and i understand its not the end all be all. I also think one side the equation without the other is incomplete.


Imagine if you will a brian ortega level jiu jitsu game with a yair Rodriguez level taekwondo game. This still isn't quite up to par with what I'm portraying here. Danaher death squad is more of my inspiration here.

I think it could work but it's hard to become that elite at even 1 discipline let alone 2. You'd have to start very young and in that case you should really get good at wrestling first since it's the hardest discipline to learn as an adult.
 
I think it could work but it's hard to become that elite at even 1 discipline let alone 2. You'd have to start very young and in that case you should really get good at wrestling first since it's the hardest discipline to learn as an adult.

I think they should be one discipline otherwise they are quite naked
 
If Ryan Hall was fighting people with elite level BJJ they would go to the ground with him and his crazy kicking game wouldn't be enough for striking.
 
It dependes a lot on your bjj skills, which depends a lot on your body type.

If you are a big dude, chances are inverting for leglocks won’t be your main attacks, plus big boys hit really hard, you pull it off a couple of times, but it requieres a good deal of flexibily and speed to get to a leg safely, it’s just too much risk, on lower weight classes, if you are the guardy type of fighter, yeah sure... it may work, as Ryan has shown
 
It dependes a lot on your bjj skills, which depends a lot on your body type.

If you are a big dude, chances are inverting for leglocks won’t be your main attacks, plus big boys hit really hard, you pull it off a couple of times, but it requieres a good deal of flexibily and speed to get to a leg safely, it’s just too much risk, on lower weight classes, if you are the guardy type of fighter, yeah sure... it may work, as Ryan has shown

Have you ever seen gordon ryan vs josh barnett?
 
Have you ever seen gordon ryan vs josh barnett?

yeah, Gordon isn’t a hw, and I doubt there’s many people going to go inverted at lhw, also gordo butterfly swept josh, passed mounted and subed him, how is that match related to this topic? Not to mention. It was a grappling match...
 
yeah, Gordon isn’t a hw, and I doubt there’s many people going to go inverted at lhw, also gordo butterfly swept josh, passed mounted and subed him, how is that match related to this topic? Not to mention. It was a grappling match...

Because gordon is a heavyweight by virtue of weighing 226 pounds and competing at absolute. And there is alot more to jiu jitsu than what you can do off your back although the danaher death squad have certainly opened up the grappling game by becoming very good at leg locks.

As a bjj guy i think its alot easier to take the fight to the ground if a fighter is trying to close the distance on you. And it's alot easier to throw kicks if someone respects your ground game. So that more than leglocks plus spinning shit is why i say bjj and taekwondo training belong together.
 
TKD isn't the type of thing where you impose your will.

What you say isn't making sense to me.

Example of a fighter doing this? Ryan Hall I guess, maybe buy other than that?
also people will make these claims by seeing a top pro fighter dong it as if the average guy can go out and do what they do

some of those skills take years and yearsss and need of top trainers with tons of 1 on 1 time great conditioning ect bjj with anything is good lol.


i think people greatly overestimate street fights self defense 99% of people who u fight suck and dont know how to fight they will throw a big punch and close the gap for you if yo do jiu jitsu cover up let them throw the big shot then wrap them with a body lock/single leg easily drag them down mount take your time.......
 
Because gordon is a heavyweight by virtue of weighing 226 pounds and competing at absolute. And there is alot more to jiu jitsu than what you can do off your back although the danaher death squad have certainly opened up the grappling game by becoming very good at leg locks.

As a bjj guy i think its alot easier to take the fight to the ground if a fighter is trying to close the distance on you. And it's alot easier to throw kicks if someone respects your ground game. So that more than leglocks plus spinning shit is why i say bjj and taekwondo training belong together.

What your not getting is that in order to do what Ryan does you need to have lighting fast imanaris or inverted entries out of a guard pull, at hw or lhw is not that easy to move that fast, in grappling you can do it and if it fails you can always recover, in mma you’ll be eating punches from big guys a lot, the best example you can get is vinny, look at his career then think twice what your Saying about Gordon. Like I said, for small guardy type of fighters, Ryan’s strategy may work, but not every bjj fighters has Ryan’s body type flexibility or even guard game. Davi Ramos just got shutdown in his last fight.

not to mention guard pulls to leg attacks isn’t something new, Japanese fighters have been doing it for ages, with mix results.
 
What your not getting is that in order to do what Ryan does you need to have lighting fast imanaris or inverted entries out of a guard pull, at hw or lhw is not that easy to move that fast, in grappling you can do it and if it fails you can always recover, in mma you’ll be eating punches from big guys a lot, the best example you can get is vinny, look at his career then think twice what your Saying about Gordon. Like I said, for small guardy type of fighters, Ryan’s strategy may work, but not every bjj fighters has Ryan’s body type flexibility or even guard game. Davi Ramos just got shutdown in his last fight.


What you're not getting is my title says elite. Twice. Not average, mediocre or pretty good.

And another thing ashi garami works great from a single leg attempt no inversion required. Davi ramos is very talented, but he just like all the Brazilian fighters of many generations just stands in boxing range. This to me is the biggest mistake you can make.

The best japanese leglocker of all time got leg locked by a dds man child. So its not the same old same old. They are doing some serious work over there, evolving bjj
 
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What you're not getting is my title says elite. Twice. Not average, mediocre or pretty good.

And another thing ashi garami works great from a single leg attempt no inversion required. Davi ramos is very talented, but he just like all the Brazilian fighters of many generations just stands in boxing range. This to me is the biggest mistake you can make.

The best japanese leglocker of all time got leg locked by a dds man child. So its not the same old same old. They are doing some serious work over there, evolving bjj

Jesus you really don’t get it.

elite means jack shit. What you are proposing is a very specific style
Of grappling, which can be done by guys with certain bodytipes. You think buchecha is not elite? Vinny is not elite? Aly is not elite? Keynan Duarte is not elite? Just because your not inverting like crazy doesn’t mean your not elite.

Again, let’s see if you get it this time. Big boys, not a safe strategy, getting punched in the face at lhw and hw is not the same as getting punch in the face at lw, nor a lhw or hw have the speed necessary to attack the legs safely out of a guard pull. At those weight classes being on bottom
Is just not a very smart thing to do.
 
Jesus you really don’t get it.

elite means jack shit. What you are proposing is a very specific style
Of grappling, which can be done by guys with certain bodytipes. You think buchecha is not elite? Vinny is not elite? Aly is not elite? Keynan Duarte is not elite? Just because your not inverting like crazy doesn’t mean your not elite.

Again, let’s see if you get it this time. Big boys, not a safe strategy, getting punched in the face at lhw and hw is not the same as getting punch in the face at lw, nor a lhw or hw have the speed necessary to attack the legs safely out of a guard pull. At those weight classes being on bottom
Is just not a very smart thing to do.

Have to agree to disagree based on the shallow talent pool at those weights. Just because people suck at fighting doesn't mean that a meaningful strategic paradigm shift isn't in order
 
Have to agree to disagree based on the shallow talent pool at those weights. Just because people suck at fighting doesn't mean that a meaningful strategic paradigm shift isn't in order

Fair enough.
 
I'm not sure whether this belongs in the grappling or striking discussion slot.

But basically from what I've seen this combo is about as useful as a boxing and wrestling combo, perhaps even moreso for a real fight.

One reason is because in open space, there is no cutting off and forcing your opponent in a corner. Another is the idea of the green zone red zone self defense strategy of the Gracie's.

Rolling into leg locks really seems to help you be able to throw kicks freely out of boxing range, as an opponent is likely afraid to take you down and if you fall down you aren't really in a bad position. Unlike frankie vs yair.

Also really powerful kicks can be so debilitating that an opponent becomes easier to take down as they rush in rather than avoiding the clinch and boxing as was the case in kron vs cub.

Plus there is the whole bareknuckle aspect (see bkfc) and the non compliant opponent aspect (see schaub vs cyborg).

Thoughts?
What is Hwarangdo? I'll take obscure martial arts for ten alex.
 
I kind of see what OP means. But wrestling is still essential. If your losing the standup exchange and you don't necessarily want to end up on the bottom unless your BJJ is many levels ahead of the other guy. At the end of the day, MMA is MMA and every hole will be exploited and every art will need to be learned. TKD kicks will work for offense, but they still need to learn boxing so they don't get boxed up.

TKD isn't the type of thing where you impose your will.

What you say isn't making sense to me.

Example of a fighter doing this? Ryan Hall I guess, maybe buy other than that?
Both Anthony Pettis and Ben Henderson come to mind.
 
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