Serious Question: Did the Heel Hook and Toe Hold come Catch Wrestling or Jiu Jitsu ?

cheachea

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I like and respect both arts but I just wanted to know if The Heel Hook and Toe Hold came from Jiu Jitsu or Catch Wrestling.

Are there any sources out there to even find out ?
 
Meh....Very few new or isolated techniques. Its all just grappling.
 
Meh....Very few new or isolated techniques. Its all just grappling.


DnF5rB7.gif
 
They talk about leg locks and foot locks in accounts of Pankration matches from over 2000 years ago...


Leg locks might be older than the written word.

Humans have been grappling for a while, it's just the names and the sport rules that change.
 
They probably entered the Brazilian grappling scene through Luta Livre which got them from catch. They almost certainly entered the US and Europe scenes through Japanese shoot wrestling, which in turn got it from catch through Karl Gotch or Billy Robinson.

I have never seen any documentation of heel hooks being used in Judo or pre-Kano Jujutsu. It's possible Maeda or one of the other Judo/Jiu-jitsu instructors in Brazil learned them from their cross-training in catch (either in Europe or the Americas) and passed it along to their students. It's possible that the heel hook wasn't imported until generations later in the Luta Livre-GJJ rivalry.

If you go a couple generations back in the lineages of non-Gracie Brazilian jiu-jitsu schools, you see a lot of references to so-and-so being a great leglocker. However, that seemed to die out around 30 years ago, and I haven't seen clear mentions of heel hooks being used in particular. The matter is complicated by the tendency of Brazilians to refer to ankle locks, toeholds, and heel hooks collectively as "footlocks". Practically speaking, this makes it impossible to determine whether any of these older masters used heel hooks and if so where they originally learned them. It's possible, and I speculate that this is the case, that heelhooking had all but died out in Brazilian jiu-jitsu before the re-exposure to it through Pancrase/Pride/etc. I may be entirely off-base on that though.

If you look at the modern popular leg locker pioneers, they largely acknowledge two primary sources for their material: Japanese shooto and sambo. Eddie Cummings credits Bodycomb, Krishna Mirjah, and shooto. Bodycomb credits sambo and shooto. Krishna Mirjah acknowledges shooto. Scott Sonnon (love him or hate him) acknowledges sambo. Daisuke Yamaji hasn't publicly spoken on the matter to my knowledge but my friend who trains there has heard him mention shooto. Danaher doesn't seem to want to credit anyone beyond a cursory thanks to Dean Lister but we all know that leg locking didn't take off in his team until Cummings joined it. Dean Lister credits sambo, Luta Livre, and a little shooto. The Machados seem to mostly credit sambo.

(I use "shooto" in the above as a catch-all term for Japanese shoot wrestling based on catch. It is not always the most accurate term but you get the idea.)

And then sambo itself took a ton of its leg locks from catch wrestling! So really, it all seems to go back to catch through a few steps removed.

Summary: I've seen almost no reason to think that the modern use of heel hooks owes anything to Judo or older Jujutsu styles. On the other hand, there are a lot of reasons to think that it derives from the influence of styles descending from catch wrestling.
 
Summary: I've seen almost no reason to think that the modern use of heel hooks owes anything to Judo or older Jujutsu styles. On the other hand, there are a lot of reasons to think that it derives from the influence of styles descending from catch wrestling.

Its funny because the classic Ashi-garami position in Judo is so close to being a heelhook, it seems hard to believe they never went for it - but I've never seen any evidence to suggest they did.
 
Centaurs have been heel heel hooking people on greek vases.
 
They probably entered the Brazilian grappling scene through Luta Livre which got them from catch. They almost certainly entered the US and Europe scenes through Japanese shoot wrestling, which in turn got it from catch through Karl Gotch or Billy Robinson.

I have never seen any documentation of heel hooks being used in Judo or pre-Kano Jujutsu. It's possible Maeda or one of the other Judo/Jiu-jitsu instructors in Brazil learned them from their cross-training in catch (either in Europe or the Americas) and passed it along to their students. It's possible that the heel hook wasn't imported until generations later in the Luta Livre-GJJ rivalry.

If you go a couple generations back in the lineages of non-Gracie Brazilian jiu-jitsu schools, you see a lot of references to so-and-so being a great leglocker. However, that seemed to die out around 30 years ago, and I haven't seen clear mentions of heel hooks being used in particular. The matter is complicated by the tendency of Brazilians to refer to ankle locks, toeholds, and heel hooks collectively as "footlocks". Practically speaking, this makes it impossible to determine whether any of these older masters used heel hooks and if so where they originally learned them. It's possible, and I speculate that this is the case, that heelhooking had all but died out in Brazilian jiu-jitsu before the re-exposure to it through Pancrase/Pride/etc. I may be entirely off-base on that though.

If you look at the modern popular leg locker pioneers, they largely acknowledge two primary sources for their material: Japanese shooto and sambo. Eddie Cummings credits Bodycomb, Krishna Mirjah, and shooto. Bodycomb credits sambo and shooto. Krishna Mirjah acknowledges shooto. Scott Sonnon (love him or hate him) acknowledges sambo. Daisuke Yamaji hasn't publicly spoken on the matter to my knowledge but my friend who trains there has heard him mention shooto. Danaher doesn't seem to want to credit anyone beyond a cursory thanks to Dean Lister but we all know that leg locking didn't take off in his team until Cummings joined it. Dean Lister credits sambo, Luta Livre, and a little shooto. The Machados seem to mostly credit sambo.

(I use "shooto" in the above as a catch-all term for Japanese shoot wrestling based on catch. It is not always the most accurate term but you get the idea.)

And then sambo itself took a ton of its leg locks from catch wrestling! So really, it all seems to go back to catch through a few steps removed.

Summary: I've seen almost no reason to think that the modern use of heel hooks owes anything to Judo or older Jujutsu styles. On the other hand, there are a lot of reasons to think that it derives from the influence of styles descending from catch wrestling.


Awesome post. Thank you very much.
 
They probably entered the Brazilian grappling scene through Luta Livre which got them from catch. They almost certainly entered the US and Europe scenes through Japanese shoot wrestling, which in turn got it from catch through Karl Gotch or Billy Robinson.

I have never seen any documentation of heel hooks being used in Judo or pre-Kano Jujutsu. It's possible Maeda or one of the other Judo/Jiu-jitsu instructors in Brazil learned them from their cross-training in catch (either in Europe or the Americas) and passed it along to their students. It's possible that the heel hook wasn't imported until generations later in the Luta Livre-GJJ rivalry.

If you go a couple generations back in the lineages of non-Gracie Brazilian jiu-jitsu schools, you see a lot of references to so-and-so being a great leglocker. However, that seemed to die out around 30 years ago, and I haven't seen clear mentions of heel hooks being used in particular. The matter is complicated by the tendency of Brazilians to refer to ankle locks, toeholds, and heel hooks collectively as "footlocks". Practically speaking, this makes it impossible to determine whether any of these older masters used heel hooks and if so where they originally learned them. It's possible, and I speculate that this is the case, that heelhooking had all but died out in Brazilian jiu-jitsu before the re-exposure to it through Pancrase/Pride/etc. I may be entirely off-base on that though.

If you look at the modern popular leg locker pioneers, they largely acknowledge two primary sources for their material: Japanese shooto and sambo. Eddie Cummings credits Bodycomb, Krishna Mirjah, and shooto. Bodycomb credits sambo and shooto. Krishna Mirjah acknowledges shooto. Scott Sonnon (love him or hate him) acknowledges sambo. Daisuke Yamaji hasn't publicly spoken on the matter to my knowledge but my friend who trains there has heard him mention shooto. Danaher doesn't seem to want to credit anyone beyond a cursory thanks to Dean Lister but we all know that leg locking didn't take off in his team until Cummings joined it. Dean Lister credits sambo, Luta Livre, and a little shooto. The Machados seem to mostly credit sambo.

(I use "shooto" in the above as a catch-all term for Japanese shoot wrestling based on catch. It is not always the most accurate term but you get the idea.)

And then sambo itself took a ton of its leg locks from catch wrestling! So really, it all seems to go back to catch through a few steps removed.

Summary: I've seen almost no reason to think that the modern use of heel hooks owes anything to Judo or older Jujutsu styles. On the other hand, there are a lot of reasons to think that it derives from the influence of styles descending from catch wrestling.

Give this man a medal. did old Grace fellow know at least some form of leglocks? Sure. Where they as sophisticated as in Catch/Sambo. No.
Part of the issue was the view that leglocks were not "coisa de homem" "not technical" or "like cheating". Another case of pride impeding development.
 
They talk about leg locks and foot locks in accounts of Pankration matches from over 2000 years ago...


Leg locks might be older than the written word.

Humans have been grappling for a while, it's just the names and the sport rules that change.

where? i always hear about this pankration stuff from thosuands years ago and modern day submissions yet have found nothing online
 
Give this man a medal. did old Grace fellow know at least some form of leglocks? Sure. Where they as sophisticated as in Catch/Sambo. No.
Part of the issue was the view that leglocks were not "coisa de homem" "not technical" or "like cheating". Another case of pride impeding development.

depends im under relson whos helios son he loves him some leg locks he loves to hit them from top half guard
 
Its funny because the classic Ashi-garami position in Judo is so close to being a heelhook, it seems hard to believe they never went for it - but I've never seen any evidence to suggest they did.

Actually I think they do a heel hook in one of the Kaya or at least an attempt to knee reaping.

Pretty sure I saw some nasty leg entanglement in some old judo books.
 
Actually I think they do a heel hook in one of the Kaya or at least an attempt to knee reaping.

Pretty sure I saw some nasty leg entanglement in some old judo books.
He was referring to what you’re talking about. It’s “ashi garami”, from the Katame-no-kata. It is not a heelhook. It is knee reaping as a submission.

I’ve also seen a lot of leg entanglements in old judo books - especially Moshe Feldenkrais’s expansive work - but zero heelhooks. If you’ve seen any actual heelhooks please do share because this has been a topic of discussion on the internet for years and no one has ever found one.
 
They probably entered the Brazilian grappling scene through Luta Livre which got them from catch. They almost certainly entered the US and Europe scenes through Japanese shoot wrestling, which in turn got it from catch through Karl Gotch or Billy Robinson.

I have never seen any documentation of heel hooks being used in Judo or pre-Kano Jujutsu. It's possible Maeda or one of the other Judo/Jiu-jitsu instructors in Brazil learned them from their cross-training in catch (either in Europe or the Americas) and passed it along to their students. It's possible that the heel hook wasn't imported until generations later in the Luta Livre-GJJ rivalry.

If you go a couple generations back in the lineages of non-Gracie Brazilian jiu-jitsu schools, you see a lot of references to so-and-so being a great leglocker. However, that seemed to die out around 30 years ago, and I haven't seen clear mentions of heel hooks being used in particular. The matter is complicated by the tendency of Brazilians to refer to ankle locks, toeholds, and heel hooks collectively as "footlocks". Practically speaking, this makes it impossible to determine whether any of these older masters used heel hooks and if so where they originally learned them. It's possible, and I speculate that this is the case, that heelhooking had all but died out in Brazilian jiu-jitsu before the re-exposure to it through Pancrase/Pride/etc. I may be entirely off-base on that though.

If you look at the modern popular leg locker pioneers, they largely acknowledge two primary sources for their material: Japanese shooto and sambo. Eddie Cummings credits Bodycomb, Krishna Mirjah, and shooto. Bodycomb credits sambo and shooto. Krishna Mirjah acknowledges shooto. Scott Sonnon (love him or hate him) acknowledges sambo. Daisuke Yamaji hasn't publicly spoken on the matter to my knowledge but my friend who trains there has heard him mention shooto. Danaher doesn't seem to want to credit anyone beyond a cursory thanks to Dean Lister but we all know that leg locking didn't take off in his team until Cummings joined it. Dean Lister credits sambo, Luta Livre, and a little shooto. The Machados seem to mostly credit sambo.

(I use "shooto" in the above as a catch-all term for Japanese shoot wrestling based on catch. It is not always the most accurate term but you get the idea.)

And then sambo itself took a ton of its leg locks from catch wrestling! So really, it all seems to go back to catch through a few steps removed.

Summary: I've seen almost no reason to think that the modern use of heel hooks owes anything to Judo or older Jujutsu styles. On the other hand, there are a lot of reasons to think that it derives from the influence of styles descending from catch wrestling.
Thanks. Very detailed and concise. Can you name some areas I can research some of these topics you delved on? Are there any books or other materials I can study this stuff, besides the internet bro forums.
 
Very interesting. Are there any 1800's era (or even early 1900s) manuals/sources that show or teach a heel hook? I'm intrigued and want to see how different/same it is to how things are done today.
 
@ Chainflow I think they were floating around back in the early Kodokan days which would suggest they existed in some styles of jiu jitsu as early Kodokan was just a freestyle sport jiu jitsu gym with what eventually turned into judo rules, because the Kodokan made the effort to ban them from competition ~1930s so they existed enough to be banned but the written record is not complete with manuals sadly.
 
Last edited:
If Thog by Armbar
....

Grog by Heelhook
 
He was referring to what you’re talking about. It’s “ashi garami”, from the Katame-no-kata. It is not a heelhook. It is knee reaping as a submission.

I’ve also seen a lot of leg entanglements in old judo books - especially Moshe Feldenkrais’s expansive work - but zero heelhooks. If you’ve seen any actual heelhooks please do share because this has been a topic of discussion on the internet for years and no one has ever found one.

From what I've seen, toe holds and ankle locks in proto Judo yes, heel hooks nah not until we move into Sambo. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, just not written AND preserved. The fossil record is less than 1% of the stuff that happened.
 
Human beings have been grappling since for ever, kind of hard to imagine that no one would’ve found out that grabbing a heel and twisting it is a devastating move...
 
Thanks. Very detailed and concise. Can you name some areas I can research some of these topics you delved on? Are there any books or other materials I can study this stuff, besides the internet bro forums.
I’ve had to do research in university libraries, Judo 6+dan, direct students of Billy Robinson, talking to people who had access to Tenshin Shinyo Ryu material, bugging people on e-budo, asking for research help from people on the old JudoForum.. Basically, if you want to look into this material, you have a lot of work ahead of you, and you’ll likely never have enough concrete material to publish a history paper on it. Too much is just lost. Sorry to be disappointing.

@ Chainflow I think they were floating around back in the early Kodokan days which would suggest they existed in some styles of jiu jitsu as early Kodokan was just a freestyle sport jiu jitsu gym with what eventually turned into judo rules, because the Kodokan made the effort to ban them from competition ~1930s so they existed enough to be banned but the written record is not complete with manuals sadly.
Do you have some reference to heelhooks in particular being banned? I’m aware of the leglock ban in the early 1900s area but I haven’t seen anything mentioning that Kano’s students were even aware of the heelhook as a technique, let alone felt the need to ban it specifically.

From what I've seen, toe holds and ankle locks in proto Judo yes, heel hooks nah not until we move into Sambo. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, just not written AND preserved. The fossil record is less than 1% of the stuff that happened.
Yeah, my impression is that the heelhook was present in Sambo due to the integration of leglocks from Catch-as-catch-can. I’d love to see some kind of reference to heelhooks in Judo but.... as for now, I’m skeptical.
 
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