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(ABC 15)   Ask a student to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance? That's a firing   (abc15.com) divider line
    More: Stupid, High school, Eisenhower High School, Chicago, 15-year-old sophomore student, cooper, instructor Vince Ziebarth, full-time driving instructor, Chicago metropolitan area  
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5028 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Mar 2017 at 4:26 AM (7 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Copy Link



165 Comments     (+0 »)
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Azlefty [TotalFark]  
Smartest (21)   Funniest (4)  
2017-03-24 12:15:49 AM  
"I told him I stand to honor the sacrifice and bravery of those who made the ultimate sacrifice for our country."

Gee I missed that part of the pledge:  His job is to teach the kids how to drive not make them good little Fakeriots. Perhaps this is what Tim Allen was talking about.
 
kbronsito  
Smartest (22)   Funniest (2)  
2017-03-24 12:29:14 AM  
There were Quakers among the founding fathers and in the congressional congress.... They can't pledge allegiance to some banner like some blasphemous idolaters. Maybe the aholes who want to make a big deal about how we've "always" stood for the flag and everyone has to need to shut their whore mouths, pick up a history book (without pictures) and learn the shiat that went into forming this country.
 
facepalm.jpg  
Smartest (47)   Funniest (2)  
2017-03-24 12:32:36 AM  
Uh, asking a student to stand for the pledge is not the same thing as refusing to do your job:

"I told him he can make a choice to sit, but as long as you choose to sit, you will not sit in my (drivers ed) vehicle. I did not tell him what to do," he told the Tribune.

We've already settled this a long time ago. Students have the freedom of speech so long as they're not disrupting the school. They can refuse to stand for the pledge, they can wear black armbands, they can put Black Lives Matter stickers on their notebooks, etc.

Refusing to allow a student to drive a car in a drivers ed class is refusing to teach the student. Plus you invite a lawsuit. Then this guy claims that he didn't do anything wrong. This guy is clearly not intelligent enough to be a teacher.
 
stan unusual [TotalFark]  
Smartest (18)   Funniest (2)  
2017-03-24 12:34:34 AM  

Azlefty: "I told him I stand to honor the sacrifice and bravery of those who made the ultimate sacrifice for our country."

Gee I missed that part of the pledge:  His job is to teach the kids how to drive not make them good little Fakeriots. Perhaps this is what Tim Allen was talking about.


What was their sacrifice and bravery for?  The Constitution of the United States and the nation it created.  Since 1943 it has been crystal clear that the First Amendment of the Constitution does not permit public officials, including public school teachers, to compel a student to participate in the Pledge of Allegiance.

Congratulations, Mister Ziebarth, your failing grade in civic has flunked you out of school.
 
2017-03-24 12:37:04 AM  
So not for asking them to stand but for threatening consequences if they don't.
Or perhaps for being too stupid to understand the difference.
 
2017-03-24 12:38:47 AM  
Damned ol' Constitution
 
2017-03-24 12:46:31 AM  
A metaphorical firing.

Followed by a literal blacklisting.
 
Sid_6.7 [TotalFark] [OhFark]  
Smartest (2)   Funniest (11)  
2017-03-24 12:46:36 AM  
Cooper's mother, Kelley Porter Turner, claimed that Ziebarth was infringing on her son's First Amendment rights. She reportedly emailed Eisenhower High School and told them to "take care of it."

Damn, she in the mob or something?
 
2017-03-24 12:47:39 AM  

J Noble Daggett: So not for asking them to stand but for threatening consequences if they don't.
Or perhaps for being too stupid to understand the difference.


Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

/freedon ismt free
 
edmo [TotalFark] [OhFark]  
Smartest (23)   Funniest (1)  
2017-03-24 12:50:46 AM  
The people who make a big deal about this stuff are seldom folks who actually served.
 
2017-03-24 1:00:01 AM  

edmo: The people who make a big deal about this stuff are seldom folks who actually served.


In my more cynical moods I imagine joy-stick warriors who flew drones 6000 miles away talking about how they risked their lives* for their country.

* or painful repetitive stress injuries
 
SoupGuru [TotalFark]  
Smartest (21)   Funniest (1)  
2017-03-24 1:00:16 AM  
We're starting to worship the symbols rather than what they represent.
 
thisispete  
Smartest (9)   Funniest (4)  
2017-03-24 1:18:32 AM  
America is very keen on its flag. You've got this pledge thing and your anthem is all about it, rather than something reasonable like the need for your leader to be saved by a deity or by being girt by sea. To those of us outside the US, even in newer countries of our own where likewise we don't have millennia of symbols to fall back on, it's always seemed a bit weird.
 
Mugato [TotalFark]  
Smartest (8)   Funniest (2)  
2017-03-24 1:18:52 AM  
I can't believe we're not done with this Pledge of Allegiance shiat yet.
 
2017-03-24 1:21:41 AM  

thisispete: America is very keen on its flag. You've got this pledge thing and your anthem is all about it, rather than something reasonable like the need for your leader to be saved by a deity or by being girt by sea. To those of us outside the US, even in newer countries of our own where likewise we don't have millennia of symbols to fall back on, it's always seemed a bit weird.


Apparently a large part of it has to do with scoundrels needing to be wrapped in something
 
IP  
Smartest (8)   Funniest (1)  
2017-03-24 1:23:13 AM  

SoupGuru: We're starting to worship the symbols rather than what they represent.


Yup.  As a military brat and someone whose had two brothers and a father serve about 30 years in the military each I can assure you they don't give two shiats about this or any other anthem protest.  Small potatos in the grand scheme.  Freedom of speech (among everything else) is what they fought for.

/well, dad passed away a few years ago so you'll just have to take my word for it
 
IP  
Smartest (1)   Funniest (1)  
2017-03-24 1:25:11 AM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: thisispete: America is very keen on its flag. You've got this pledge thing and your anthem is all about it, rather than something reasonable like the need for your leader to be saved by a deity or by being girt by sea. To those of us outside the US, even in newer countries of our own where likewise we don't have millennia of symbols to fall back on, it's always seemed a bit weird.

Apparently a large part of it has to do with scoundrels needing to be wrapped in something


See Soaps comment.  Simple, correct.
 
IP  
Smartest (14)   Funniest (2)  
2017-03-24 1:33:55 AM  
Last point before I put this drink down and toddle off:  you people who equate anthem or flag protests with lack of support for our men and women in uniform are wrong can go fark yourselves.  GOOD DAY.
 
IP  
Smartest (1)   Funniest (0)  
2017-03-24 1:35:37 AM  
"and"
 
Sid_6.7 [TotalFark] [OhFark]  
Smartest (11)   Funniest (0)  
2017-03-24 1:48:57 AM  

thisispete: America is very keen on its flag. You've got this pledge thing and your anthem is all about it, rather than something reasonable like the need for your leader to be saved by a deity or by being girt by sea. To those of us outside the US, even in newer countries of our own where likewise we don't have millennia of symbols to fall back on, it's always seemed a bit weird.


The flag is an important symbol. The pledge and the anthem are both partly relics from an older attitude concerning the idea that the presence of a flag means control and sovereignty.

The national anthem is about the fact that the flag is still flying despite a concerted attack. The flag is merely the symbol that the defenders have not failed and are still resisting. All night long it was evident because of the explosions of the weapons the enemy was using that the fort had not fallen, because the weapons illuminated the flag, and it was still the American flag.

Similarly, from the Pledge of Allegiance:

"...to the flag of the United States of America, and to the country for which it stands..."

The flag is just a symbol, but when you can see it flying, it means America still exists, still has territory, is still a thing. It's a symbol of that. We have a lot of pride in the fact that we won our independence from what was at the time one of if not the most powerful country on the planet. How many other countries have that as their origin?

And America, despite all its flaws and its bizarre and troubled history, is still great as far as I'm concerned, and as far as lots of other citizens are concerned.
 
optikeye [TotalFark]  
Smartest (11)   Funniest (1)  
2017-03-24 1:56:53 AM  
When they added "under god" to the pledge it became worship to a graven image.
A big "No" for some religious groups.
 
2017-03-24 1:57:08 AM  

Sid_6.7: The flag is just a symbol, but when you can see it flying, it means America still exists, still has territory, is still a thing. It's a symbol of that. We have a lot of pride in the fact that we won our independence from what was at the time one of if not the most powerful country on the planet. How many other countries have that as their origin?


Vietnam?
 
2017-03-24 1:57:45 AM  

IP: MaudlinMutantMollusk: thisispete: America is very keen on its flag. You've got this pledge thing and your anthem is all about it, rather than something reasonable like the need for your leader to be saved by a deity or by being girt by sea. To those of us outside the US, even in newer countries of our own where likewise we don't have millennia of symbols to fall back on, it's always seemed a bit weird.

Apparently a large part of it has to do with scoundrels needing to be wrapped in something

See Soaps comment.  Simple, correct.


Yeah

/I've said the same myself
//Sadly, the situation isn't new
 
Mugato [TotalFark]  
Smartest (1)   Funniest (1)  
2017-03-24 1:58:59 AM  

Sid_6.7: We have a lot of pride in the fact that we won our independence from what was at the time one of if not the most powerful country on the planet. How many other countries have that as their origin?


Not the Native Americans. Although I did lose my ass at the Seminole Hard Rock last month.
 
Dinjiin [BareFark]  
Smartest (12)   Funniest (0)  
2017-03-24 2:37:13 AM  
People fought and died for this country so that its citizens could have the choice as to what ceremonies they wanted to participate in.
 
muck1969  
Smartest (3)   Funniest (0)  
2017-03-24 2:55:02 AM  

optikeye: When they added "under god" to the pledge it became worship to a graven image.
A big "No" for some religious groups.


but the worst part is having an underage individual make a solemn pledge, which could sometimes carry the weight of law. the religious bit could have been "under my creator", and the SC would still have ruled against compelling kids to recite the pledge.
 
2017-03-24 3:25:08 AM  

kbronsito: There were Quakers among the founding fathers and in the congressional congress.... They can't pledge allegiance to some banner like some blasphemous idolaters. Maybe the aholes who want to make a big deal about how we've "always" stood for the flag and everyone has to need to shut their whore mouths, pick up a history book (without pictures) and learn the shiat that went into forming this country.


The pledge was not written until 1892 by a socialist minister Francis Bellamy

He wrote it for every nation, actually. But the reason why he wrote it because he hated the one that U.S. Navy officer George Balch and was adopted in 1887:

We give our heads and our hearts to god and our country. One country, one language, one flag.


But the fact of the matter is America has waves of intolerance and love to those who defy the norm.

The teacher was wrong. Unless they are acting out in class, you can't just not teach them.
 
doglover  
Smartest (2)   Funniest (0)  
2017-03-24 4:04:55 AM  
It's like the Japanese say:

お静かに
Be quiet.

That's what we, as a society, have to tell these flag worshiping assholes.
 
pkjun  
Smartest (8)   Funniest (3)  
2017-03-24 4:26:57 AM  

J Noble Daggett: Sid_6.7: The flag is just a symbol, but when you can see it flying, it means America still exists, still has territory, is still a thing. It's a symbol of that. We have a lot of pride in the fact that we won our independence from what was at the time one of if not the most powerful country on the planet. How many other countries have that as their origin?

Vietnam?


Multiple times, too. They won their independence from the Tang Empire, defended it against the Mongol Empire (three times!), defended it against the Ming Empire, defended it against the Qing Empire, and then finally got beat by the French Empire.

And then they kicked out the French, and then they kicked out the Americans (and all their friends and allies), and then they kicked out Pol Pot next door as a victory lap, and finally they kicked out the Chinese one last time.

I mean, yeah, it's kinda neat that America managed to win its independence from one of the four most powerful empires in Europe, but we only managed that once the other three declared war on the one we were trying to break free of. And even then, just barely.

Vietnam won its independence from pretty much everyone, including several empires which were (at the time) the largest and most powerful in history, mostly had to do it on their own, and has rarely had the chance to go a century without needing to chuck out some new batch of historical illiterates who think it'll be different for them this time. America's history is so much less badass it's not even funny.
 
2017-03-24 4:29:32 AM  

J Noble Daggett: edmo: The people who make a big deal about this stuff are seldom folks who actually served.

In my more cynical moods I imagine joy-stick warriors who flew drones 6000 miles away talking about how they risked their lives* for their country.

* or painful repetitive stress injuries


Otoh, the joystick warriors supposedly have among the highest levels of PTSD because they kill all day and then go straight home, so fewer can leave the war behind.
 
zepillin [BareFark] [OhFark]  
Smartest (2)   Funniest (1)  
2017-03-24 4:33:00 AM  
"says driving instructor"

LOL

GOOD

BYE
 
zepillin [BareFark] [OhFark]  
Smartest (1)   Funniest (1)  
2017-03-24 4:36:26 AM  
"I told him he can make a choice to sit, but as long as you choose to sit, you will not sit in my (drivers ed) vehicle. I did not tell him what to do,"

priceless

probably been said

still reading

awe-inspiring
 
randomjsa  
Smartest (2)   Funniest (1)  
2017-03-24 4:36:28 AM  
Another story indicated that the teacher grabbed him and tried to make him stand.
 
zepillin [BareFark] [OhFark]  
Smartest (1)   Funniest (0)  
2017-03-24 4:40:01 AM  
Cooper refused to stand for the Pledge, and also told him "America sucks.

Oh, what a brat

course I can see why might feel that way/some americans in his face sucked

but brat, or both

why not

both
 
lucksi  
Smartest (5)   Funniest (4)  
2017-03-24 4:41:47 AM  
You still do the Hitler Youth thing in the good ol US of A?

Some things never change.
 
2017-03-24 4:42:12 AM  

Smackledorfer: J Noble Daggett: edmo: The people who make a big deal about this stuff are seldom folks who actually served.

In my more cynical moods I imagine joy-stick warriors who flew drones 6000 miles away talking about how they risked their lives* for their country.

* or painful repetitive stress injuries

Otoh, the joystick warriors supposedly have among the highest levels of PTSD because they kill all day and then go straight home, so fewer can leave the war behind.


They need to make it more like the video game in "Ender's Game". That way they won't be able to tell if they are killing real people instead of just getting a high score.
 
Surool  
Smartest (2)   Funniest (0)  
2017-03-24 4:42:29 AM  
You missed a whole bunch of non-misleading things in the headline, subby.
 
2017-03-24 4:47:16 AM  

thisispete: America is very keen on its flag. You've got this pledge thing and your anthem is all about it, rather than something reasonable like the need for your leader to be saved by a deity or by being girt by sea. To those of us outside the US, even in newer countries of our own where likewise we don't have millennia of symbols to fall back on, it's always seemed a bit weird.


Oh come on, which nation would be dumb enough to have an anthem like that?
 
zepillin [BareFark] [OhFark]  
Smartest (0)   Funniest (0)  
2017-03-24 4:47:16 AM  

kbronsito: need to shut their whore mouths, pick up a history book (without pictures) and learn the shiat that went into forming this country.


this!

and the for real stuff can be hard to find

up to a third of the new arrivals went native

then disease

then a wilderness of cleared and turned agricultural fields and producing fruit orchards

but no more folks no more

sad
 
orbister  
Smartest (1)   Funniest (0)  
2017-03-24 4:48:30 AM  

thisispete: America is very keen on its flag. You've got this pledge thing and your anthem is all about it, rather than something reasonable like the need for your leader to be saved by a deity or by being girt by sea. To those of us outside the US, even in newer countries of our own where likewise we don't have millennia of symbols to fall back on, it's always seemed a bit weird.


Indeed. Not to mention a feeling of loyalty so insecure that it has to be repeated daily.

Gimme eat.
 
gerbilpox  
Smartest (8)   Funniest (2)  
2017-03-24 4:51:37 AM  

Sid_6.7: The national anthem is about the fact that the flag is still flying despite a concerted attack. The flag is merely the symbol that the defenders have not failed and are still resisting.


This.

Similarly, from the Pledge of Allegiance:

"...to the flag of the United States of America, and to the country for which it stands..."

The flag is just a symbol, but when you can see it flying, it means America still exists, still has territory, is still a thing.


Not exactly. It's literally pledging allegiance -- i.e., promising loyalty -- to the country. That already implies the country still exists, is "a thing," etc.

Why add loyalty to a piece of cloth (whatever the hell that means) even while acknowledging that it's a symbol for what we're already pledging loyalty to? Bottom line, the magazine writer and marketer who came up with it wanted it to be part of a flag-raising ritual. In the 125 years since, it's been twisted into outright idolatry.

Funny how the pledge is almost never said by adults except at ball games, yet people flip out about requiring kids to. They're demanding kids take an oath when they're too young to sign a contract, and chant it every day before they are capable of understanding it, so by the time they could it's nothing but a rote recitation devoid of meaning.

/obviously I hate freedom
 
zepillin [BareFark] [OhFark]  
Smartest (0)   Funniest (0)  
2017-03-24 4:57:37 AM  

stan unusual: Since 1943 it has been crystal clear that the First Amendment of the Constitution


1ST I don't have to pledge allegiance if I don't wnnwa
2Nd I can have guns if I wanta

whose are these people
wanting to tread me
 
2017-03-24 5:04:06 AM  
Why is this stupid? Not everyone want their child to be indoctrinated.
 
phishrace  
Smartest (1)   Funniest (3)  
2017-03-24 5:04:38 AM  
Trump tweet taking credit for the kid not getting his drivers license in ...3...2...
 
mchaboud  
Smartest (4)   Funniest (1)  
2017-03-24 5:05:56 AM  
Illegally compel a student to follow needless protocol during pledge of allegiance?  That's a well-deserved firing, teacher.

Fixed that headline for you, subby...
 
2017-03-24 5:06:41 AM  
snabbieyoyo.orgView Full Size
 
uttertosh [OhFark]  
Smartest (1)   Funniest (1)  
2017-03-24 5:07:28 AM  

Surool: You missed a whole bunch of non-misleading things in the headline, subby.


Look, I am as attached to my security blanket as much as the next orange faced baby, but sometimes you just gotta let go.
 
Begoggle  
Smartest (1)   Funniest (0)  
2017-03-24 5:10:22 AM  
Headline lies, both on Fark and the article.
No surprise, though.
This is the era of fake news and Fark helps propagate it.
 
2017-03-24 5:10:29 AM  
azquotes.comView Full Size
 
Mole Man  
Smartest (4)   Funniest (4)  
2017-03-24 5:11:05 AM  
Shocked that I am the only one about to do this:

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
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