Aging students earning upper belts in bjj

Hi all-
Question that I'm struggling with and would love some other of the more experienced and senior grapplers take.

The crux of my question is this- what should belts and grading look like for older students after blue? What should the requirements for purple or brown be?

As some of you know, my dad is my freaking hero. He was just promoted to purple belt at age 63. He's been doing BJJ for about 7 years now. He's been doing martial arts for 30 plus. And he's really struggling with his promotion, not feeling like he deserves it, doesn't want to wear the belt, etc.

My dad has some health problems- bad neck, skin cancer, leg / clotting issues that limit his training. He is very picky with his partners, and only rolls with a couple of people he trusts. He knows all the moves and can demonstrate them well. During rolling, when he is on top, he is still a fucking nightmare (6'4, 250, and strong as shit). Some days he doesn't do much, but he is there, learning, helping, etc.

He will never roll with the new guys, but will teach them to shoulder roll, shrimp etc. The brown and purple belts come to him to learn the self defense and weapon requirements for their next rank (due to his other martial arts background). He's at the gym 4-5 times a week, either in BJJ, teaching self defense, taking falls in Judo, etc.

So should he have been stuck at blue forever? Does he stay at purple for 4 years (he was white for 2.5 years, blue for 4.5) and then get brown?

I'm not looking to justify his promotion, hopefully it doesn't come across that way. Maybe he is an exception. But as BJJ gets more popular and ages in the US, this is going to come up and I'm curious what will be the art's response. Are we going to see more "ceremonial" type black belts? Is the mystique of the bjj black belt going to be lost? Is it fair to say that someone like my dad earning a black belt at 69/ 70 devalues the belt?

And to less of the extreme - what about the 40-50 year old dads who train 2-3 times a week and are purple belts- but no longer have the time or willingness to dedicate to competition? Is it fair to tell a 45 year old brown belt- you can keep training, but you will never be able to compete / defend a black belt, and we don't want to devalue the art- so you are not getting it? (I'm not talking about the rich guys buying belts with privates or gym owners- these are people who do know and can perform bjj- just maybe not at the historical, mythical black belt kill everyone on any mat anywhere level)

Thanks in advance-

TLDR - how will (or should) requirements change as bjj and the people doing it mature in the US?

Belt is well deserved.
It's all time. Not everyone who trains is going to compete and is going to be a world champion. But if you are consistent and are learning nobody should stop the promotion cycle.

Its when guys stop and start that is hard. I'm one of those guys. In 20 years of doing jiu jitsu I have stopped and started numerous times which I know is frustrating for my instructor. I never cared about the belt. Wasn't a big deal bit life was a big deal so I train when I can. So guys like me shouldn't be promoted but if you hit the gym for 2 to 3 times a.week like in your example you should get a belt every 2 to 3 years.

Forceof1 said:

Hi all-
Question that I'm struggling with and would love some other of the more experienced and senior grapplers take.

The crux of my question is this- what should belts and grading look like for older students after blue? What should the requirements for purple or brown be?

As some of you know, my dad is my freaking hero. He was just promoted to purple belt at age 63. He's been doing BJJ for about 7 years now. He's been doing martial arts for 30 plus. And he's really struggling with his promotion, not feeling like he deserves it, doesn't want to wear the belt, etc.

My dad has some health problems- bad neck, skin cancer, leg / clotting issues that limit his training. He is very picky with his partners, and only rolls with a couple of people he trusts. He knows all the moves and can demonstrate them well. During rolling, when he is on top, he is still a fucking nightmare (6'4, 250, and strong as shit). Some days he doesn't do much, but he is there, learning, helping, etc.

He will never roll with the new guys, but will teach them to shoulder roll, shrimp etc. The brown and purple belts come to him to learn the self defense and weapon requirements for their next rank (due to his other martial arts background). He's at the gym 4-5 times a week, either in BJJ, teaching self defense, taking falls in Judo, etc.

So should he have been stuck at blue forever? Does he stay at purple for 4 years (he was white for 2.5 years, blue for 4.5) and then get brown?

I'm not looking to justify his promotion, hopefully it doesn't come across that way. Maybe he is an exception. But as BJJ gets more popular and ages in the US, this is going to come up and I'm curious what will be the art's response. Are we going to see more "ceremonial" type black belts? Is the mystique of the bjj black belt going to be lost? Is it fair to say that someone like my dad earning a black belt at 69/ 70 devalues the belt?

And to less of the extreme - what about the 40-50 year old dads who train 2-3 times a week and are purple belts- but no longer have the time or willingness to dedicate to competition? Is it fair to tell a 45 year old brown belt- you can keep training, but you will never be able to compete / defend a black belt, and we don't want to devalue the art- so you are not getting it? (I'm not talking about the rich guys buying belts with privates or gym owners- these are people who do know and can perform bjj- just maybe not at the historical, mythical black belt kill everyone on any mat anywhere level)

Thanks in advance-

TLDR - how will (or should) requirements change as bjj and the people doing it mature in the US?

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your dad sounds like an amazing and generous individual. Having someone teach the new people rolls and shrimps is SOOOO understated in terms of helpfulness and takes much patience and energy.

I think for older people, the belt should be based more on knowledge rather than competition/dominating others on the mat. Not just knowledge of collecting moves, I mean understanding BJJ and concepts and being able to communicate them with others. Especially if they can teach and train other individuals to proficiency, thats proof right there of their ability as a higher rank

One of my student is 53 and we awarded his purple belt.

I would have no problem promoting him to the next belt in due time.

Do I expect to "defend" his belt?

Not really, I don't encourage or reward headhunting.

Also I have plenty of others students that can regulate some newbies if needed anyway. But it never happens, people that visit are always cool.

I'm a young guy who likes to compete but my professor has all walks of life in his gym.
there are 60 year old guys on way to purple belt, they earned it and are competent enough to show they earned it. will they smash an aggressive blue belt maybe not but that's not all the art is about and ill tell you right now a lot of these guys are a lot more competent than the young guys and more helpful to newer students so whos to say they haven't earned that belt?
by the way not being hostile in anyway although it may sound like that lol

There's certain guys that might be the same belt as you but 20 years younger and competes every 2 weeks. You gotta beat him to get your next belt, that could be a while.
The belt is more to show your level of experience, not necessarily how good you are.
Most people take it like a credential, I don't think it was ever meant to be a credential. Like, I'm a purple belt, that means I can do this and this.
For instance in Judo, black belt means he can take a fall and he knows all the throws. It doesn't necessarily mean he can compete with any black belt.
It all gets sorted out in competition, if you don't compete then you're just a guy who can fall and knows the throws, maybe teach if the real guy isn't there.
Likewise, if you take Muay Thai for 10 years and don't compete, you're a guy who trains Muay Thai.
Belt doesn't change anything, it's just to track people of various experience in the class.
You don't have to remember who the fuck this guy is, you go "oh he's a purple belt, he probably knows his ass from a hole in the ground" and you know what to expect from him.

I remember thinking that none of us would get past purple. It was regularly talked about that brown and above were reserved for top 10 UFC fighters or world champions.

I'd look around the mat and see Jake shields and nick Diaz as purple belts and Dave Terrell being the only black belt. I was damn proud of my blue belt and content with hopefully one day reaching purple.

After 10 years at blue belt things started to change. Our famous fighters left to create their own empires. At the same time, masters division competitions started becoming more regular. I looked at he scene and thought maybe I could change my thinking by competing.

Two years at purple and two years at brown and bam I'm a black belt at forty four years old. Getting mine a few months before some young kid named Nate Diaz.

As a 50 year old black belt, I know I don't deserve to meet roger in a super fight. It doesn't mean that my belt isn't legit. Cesar is definitely old school. Caio terra had to convince him I was worthy of brown. Even when I got it, Cesar wasn't happy. It was the same for black.

Getting to black shouldn't be easy. There was a lot of sacrifice personally, professionally, and physically. It still seems weird to look down and see a black belt around my waist. In November I'll be getting my second stripe. That just means I'm getting older!

Old people are cool.

No problem with it as long as the knowledge and movement skills are there. There is no reason why an older guy should be less knowledgeable or be able to execute the techniques less well.

That an older guy will be slower and weaker shouldn't be held against the promotion.

TehGwarch said:

There's certain guys that might be the same belt as you but 20 years younger and competes every 2 weeks. You gotta beat him to get your next belt, that could be a while.
The belt is more to show your level of experience, not necessarily how good you are.
Most people take it like a credential, I don't think it was ever meant to be a credential. Like, I'm a purple belt, that means I can do this and this.
For instance in Judo, black belt means he can take a fall and he knows all the throws. It doesn't necessarily mean he can compete with any black belt.
It all gets sorted out in competition, if you don't compete then you're just a guy who can fall and knows the throws, maybe teach if the real guy isn't there.
Likewise, if you take Muay Thai for 10 years and don't compete, you're a guy who trains Muay Thai.
Belt doesn't change anything, it's just to track people of various experience in the class.
You don't have to remember who the fuck this guy is, you go "oh he's a purple belt, he probably knows his ass from a hole in the ground" and you know what to expect from him.

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The problem is that it's really not what is happening in BJJ right now. There's loads of schools that promote a lot on sparring skills. There is also a lot of beliefs about being able to defend your rank. So a blue belt can never tap to a white belt, a purple belt is gonna destroy any blue belt... Regardless of size, age, physical attributes...

In any other martial arts with a belt system it works as you said. You promote people who attend, who have the knowledge, the skills, and for higher belts, who get involved with teaching. Even sports with a lot of competition and sparring like judo, TKD and some karate styles, they don't really care about your results but more about your knowledge. Sure there's a certain limit like getting dominated by every new comers but the skills will...

This sport oriented way of seeing things is great for the 15 to 35 young males who can roll with each other and have fun at the highest level. My school is pretty much run like that and it's suits me well. I like the competition, when I go up in rank I want to defend it and to prove myself worthy of the next rank by giving hell to the guy whose ''ahead'' of me.

But should it be the only way to train our matial art. I really think that the techniques that I use in sparring while I'm playing with my other in shape 15-35 dudes can be useful to little women, out of shape 50 years old guys, kids with bullying problems...

I think that most BJJ schools, at least the ones in my area, are forgetting about showing the techniques and the art to the weaker ones. We let them try but they soon find out that they're gonna get their ass kicked every class and they have few hope of promotions. So right now we are building competition clubs instead of showing this wonderful martial art to the people.

Your dad's promotion sounds totally legitimate. We have a lot of 40-and-over guys at our academy. Sometimes half the students in a given class are over 40. The promotions of the older guys has never been questioned. They know what they are doing, they have a lot of knowledge, and they are not an easy roll for anybody, especially a 58-year-old I train with who got promoted to black recently. His top pressure is ridiculous. They have trouble with the young guys who compete a lot, but so does everybody else. The thing just about all these older guys have in common, though, is that they have been serious athletes their whole lives. I train with two guys who are over 50, and they look and move nothing like a typical person their age. So I think BJJ can be for most ages, but I don't think it's for everybody. I don't think I could recommend BJJ to a severely out-of-shape 45-year-old who hasn't been physically active since college.

We do have one guy, whom I mentioned in another thread, who is about 50 and got his purple belt in under 4 years, and it was ridiculous. He is just really bad. He has no physical limitations that I know of, but he moves quite awkwardly and has extreme difficulty picking up techniques. I don't have a problem with this guy getting promoted, but someone like him should have to wait 7 years or so for a purple. I honestly think he was promoted because he trains consistently and has a likeable personality, and maybe because the instructor took some pity on him. And probably also because he has no problem paying the exorbitant tuition.

I'm a 45-year-old purple and I have been training consistently two or three times a week for more than 9 years. Barring injuries, I will probably get my black in about 4 years, which feels right to me. I've struggled with picking things up over the years, probably more than the average person, and I've experienced a ton of frustration. But I've improved steadily, and occasionally after a roll with a new young guy, I can see in his face that he was surprised that I gave him a hard time.

Cash Bill 52 said:

I remember thinking that none of us would get past purple. It was regularly talked about that brown and above were reserved for top 10 UFC fighters or world champions.

I'd look around the mat and see Jake shields and nick Diaz as purple belts and Dave Terrell being the only black belt. I was damn proud of my blue belt and content with hopefully one day reaching purple.

After 10 years at blue belt things started to change. Our famous fighters left to create their own empires. At the same time, masters division competitions started becoming more regular. I looked at he scene and thought maybe I could change my thinking by competing.

Two years at purple and two years at brown and bam I'm a black belt at forty four years old. Getting mine a few months before some young kid named Nate Diaz.

As a 50 year old black belt, I know I don't deserve to meet roger in a super fight. It doesn't mean that my belt isn't legit. Cesar is definitely old school. Caio terra had to convince him I was worthy of brown. Even when I got it, Cesar wasn't happy. It was the same for black.

Getting to black shouldn't be easy. There was a lot of sacrifice personally, professionally, and physically. It still seems weird to look down and see a black belt around my waist. In November I'll be getting my second stripe. That just means I'm getting older!

Old people are cool.

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I've heard Cesar and Relson have really strict standards with belt promotions, but damn your path sounded tough. Getting the black must have felt awesome.

Although I don't have the same health issues, as a 51 year old Purple belt I understand how your father feels. I've been a Purple belt for almost a year and only now do I feel worthy. At the beginning I felt that I should be able to beat every White Belt or Blue belt in the academy, but strength, youth and athleticism matter. It looks like your father is making the same mistake I did. He's comparing himself to someone else instead of the criteria.
Does he have the knowledge of a Purple Belt?
Is he able to teach what he knows?
Is he comparable to someone his own age, weight and skill level?
Does he represent his belt with dignity?

As I get older, I'll have a harder time with lower belts. Not because I don't know what I'm doing but my body will not allow me to execute.

It's like comparing a 65 Vette to a 2017 Vette. They're both Vettes but entirely different cars and both entitled to wear the Vette badge.

I just want to be better than I was yesterday.

Cash Bill 52 said:

I remember thinking that none of us would get past purple. It was regularly talked about that brown and above were reserved for top 10 UFC fighters or world champions.

I'd look around the mat and see Jake shields and nick Diaz as purple belts and Dave Terrell being the only black belt. I was damn proud of my blue belt and content with hopefully one day reaching purple.

After 10 years at blue belt things started to change. Our famous fighters left to create their own empires. At the same time, masters division competitions started becoming more regular. I looked at he scene and thought maybe I could change my thinking by competing.

Two years at purple and two years at brown and bam I'm a black belt at forty four years old. Getting mine a few months before some young kid named Nate Diaz.

As a 50 year old black belt, I know I don't deserve to meet roger in a super fight. It doesn't mean that my belt isn't legit. Cesar is definitely old school. Caio terra had to convince him I was worthy of brown. Even when I got it, Cesar wasn't happy. It was the same for black.

Getting to black shouldn't be easy. There was a lot of sacrifice personally, professionally, and physically. It still seems weird to look down and see a black belt around my waist. In November I'll be getting my second stripe. That just means I'm getting older!

Old people are cool.

Click to expand...

Wow! Bill, you are my hero. I wish to be like you when I'm 50. I'm almost 45 and I've been a purple belt for 3 years now.

kenpeters8 said:

Wow! Bill, you are my hero. I wish to be like you when I'm 50. I'm almost 45 and I've been a purple belt for 3 years now.

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Thank you, my friend!

I'll tell you what I tell my teammates. Set you sights a little higher. I'm not blazing this trail so that you can match my accomplishments. I expect you to go further. Good luck on your journey!

Cash Bill 52 said:

Thank you, my friend!

I'll tell you what I tell my teammates. Set you sights a little higher. I'm not blazing this trail so that you can match my accomplishments. I expect you to go further. Good luck on your journey!

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Hopefully I'll reach black belt before I'm 50. 5 more years and I'm 50.

I don't know where I fit in. I got my blue Belt 7 years ago today (8/31/11) and I till actively train but I usually lose to most at the gym. I turned 69 last month and generally I roll with anyone as assigned by the Sensei. I do a lot better in no-gi than gi (like it more and have a wrestling background) . I do not compete as entry fees are way too high for me, in fact I often work as staff as some tournaments just to add to my very limited income. It is hard enough to pay the gym fee ($100), the monthly transit pass to get there ($32.50) , as well as replace equipment as it get sworn out but I like BJJ so much that I just want to keep going, even walking 1 km from the bus stop to the gym in days that sometimes reach 110 or more (Lost Wages, NV, USA), but at times knowing that a promotion is highly unlikely until I can do a lot better on the mats is discouraging. Any suggestions welcome. Thanks

Right or wrong, I concluded long ago that the only thing a belt signifies is the relationship btw you and your instructor. To question your worthiness of receiving the belt is to question your instructors ability to evaluate jiu jitsu - I think it's both selfish and egotistical.

I never really thought much about belts until my instructor approached me recently about tying one around one of our kids bc I worked with him. We debated about it and I asked myself what I wanted the belt to accomplish. I honestly thought it was pointless bc this kid was fucking tough - he grew a lot and I didnt think giving him a belt would do anything. In his case a belt was an acknowledgment of what he had become. I had an old instructor also give a purple in hopes that it would inspire him to train more; in this case, it was awarded to encourage what he could become (this guy returned shortly to his absentee self).

This is to say I think perhaps a belt is merely a means to acknowledge or encourage a behavior. You always hope its the former but I don't think it's a big deal if it's the latter.

Do you think anyone getting those red or striped belts are still able to hang with even young brown belts? Evety subsequent degree of black belt is entirely ceremonial. Why do we have no problem promoting guys way past their prime to advanced black belt degrees, but balk at giving that same guy a purple or brown belt?

esteven said:

Do you think anyone getting those red or striped belts are still able to hang with even young brown belts? Evety subsequent degree of black belt is entirely ceremonial. Why do we have no problem promoting guys way past their prime to advanced black belt degrees, but balk at giving that same guy a purple or brown belt?

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Because everyone that trains for a while knows that advanced black belt degrees denote only time in belt not any sort of extra skill.

Forceof1 said:

Hi all-
Question that I'm struggling with and would love some other of the more experienced and senior grapplers take.

The crux of my question is this- what should belts and grading look like for older students after blue? What should the requirements for purple or brown be?

As some of you know, my dad is my freaking hero. He was just promoted to purple belt at age 63. He's been doing BJJ for about 7 years now. He's been doing martial arts for 30 plus. And he's really struggling with his promotion, not feeling like he deserves it, doesn't want to wear the belt, etc.

My dad has some health problems- bad neck, skin cancer, leg / clotting issues that limit his training. He is very picky with his partners, and only rolls with a couple of people he trusts. He knows all the moves and can demonstrate them well. During rolling, when he is on top, he is still a fucking nightmare (6'4, 250, and strong as shit). Some days he doesn't do much, but he is there, learning, helping, etc.

He will never roll with the new guys, but will teach them to shoulder roll, shrimp etc. The brown and purple belts come to him to learn the self defense and weapon requirements for their next rank (due to his other martial arts background). He's at the gym 4-5 times a week, either in BJJ, teaching self defense, taking falls in Judo, etc.

So should he have been stuck at blue forever? Does he stay at purple for 4 years (he was white for 2.5 years, blue for 4.5) and then get brown?

I'm not looking to justify his promotion, hopefully it doesn't come across that way. Maybe he is an exception. But as BJJ gets more popular and ages in the US, this is going to come up and I'm curious what will be the art's response. Are we going to see more "ceremonial" type black belts? Is the mystique of the bjj black belt going to be lost? Is it fair to say that someone like my dad earning a black belt at 69/ 70 devalues the belt?

And to less of the extreme - what about the 40-50 year old dads who train 2-3 times a week and are purple belts- but no longer have the time or willingness to dedicate to competition? Is it fair to tell a 45 year old brown belt- you can keep training, but you will never be able to compete / defend a black belt, and we don't want to devalue the art- so you are not getting it? (I'm not talking about the rich guys buying belts with privates or gym owners- these are people who do know and can perform bjj- just maybe not at the historical, mythical black belt kill everyone on any mat anywhere level)

Thanks in advance-

TLDR - how will (or should) requirements change as bjj and the people doing it mature in the US?

Click to expand...

If he knows the technique and is helping out. He is a leader in the gym. He doesn’t need to defend anything. Just keep moving on.